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Powersoft X4 real power

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote csg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2020 at 8:23am

"Besides that, X4 is capable of burning 18SW115 coils."

There you have it....i got asked a while back if i was investing in any of the new X4L ( my racks are all X8 and T604), my answer was that even with plenty of 3000W RMS subwoofers in my stock i don't own any speakers that cannot be destroyed by the X8.


“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2020 at 12:43am
Originally posted by BigSoundNorthWest BigSoundNorthWest wrote:

to nutshell this thread then..

Folks: "powersoft does / doesnt do these things... and are pants"

kyle / kutty / etc: "we own mountains of em, a: they do /don't and b: theyre effing great"

folks: "naaaaaaah, we've seen a test on a bench, and some figures, what the F**k do you lot know"

obviously, is a bit more nuanced and less black n white than that, but.... 


The big nuance is that Powersoft does deliver true to its specs. The things that I have read about not delivering their specced power are totally NOT related to their own (powersoft) specs. Besides that, X4 is capable of burning 18SW115 coils. If it gets that dependent I would say you do not have enough rig for the gig.

Things are probably different in other scenes, but I would say that's the case in 99/100 PA world.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2020 at 10:44pm
Certain things in life, can only be verified by trial and error.

Only in Speakerplansland, are such things tested, from the comfort of the computer desk, and screen.
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigSoundNorthWest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 June 2020 at 4:25pm
to nutshell this thread then..

Folks: "powersoft does / doesnt do these things... and are pants"

kyle / kutty / etc: "we own mountains of em, a: they do /don't and b: theyre effing great"

folks: "naaaaaaah, we've seen a test on a bench, and some figures, what the F**k do you lot know"

obviously, is a bit more nuanced and less black n white than that, but.... 



Edited by BigSoundNorthWest - 05 June 2020 at 4:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joew559 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2020 at 11:43am
Originally posted by Sinai Sound Sinai Sound wrote:

Originally posted by Jhodas Jhodas wrote:

Originally posted by PolymorphicMark PolymorphicMark wrote:

If the Powersoft X4 is been tested with a restive load then one thing will be neglected. The poweroft class-D's regenerate the power supply from the back EMF generated by inductive speaker, this will happen most effectively on subs as the inductance would be very high at the speaker box resonance.

I understand that this would mean in real world the amp could sustain high output for much longer.

What do the electronic experts think of this?



This is the single most informed post here IMHO. Class Ds do all sorts of wizardry, but missing fundamentals isn't part of it. 
Numbers tell part of the story. Standing in front of a trio of obertons that are literally shaking the water in your bottle and making the beer in your stomach fizz forcing you to burp, well that's the other part. 
Anyone with any doubt about powersoft's power output, go catch Iration or Word Sound and Power. Both have a brace of X8s in their racks. 

Robert Tribulation made his CD player skip once. You need more than a 10ms burst to do that. 


I've got an 2 x X8 and a 1 x X4

6 x PD1852 scoops managed to dislodged lights out of a roof in a pretty damned big venue in Spain


If anyone has been to see Sinai/Iration recently, they'll know the X series do the business. Iration playing tnt roots at dubcamp , definitely more than a few milliseconds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2019 at 3:35pm
Found d&b D80, way back in March 2014:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2019 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

I was unable to measure even ~400W continuous per channel on the X4, if I remember correctly.

If Powersoft says X4 is a 4* 1600W amp.. it could be OK!

But keep in mind it sold as 4* 5000W amp, total 20000Watts which are very, very far from the reality.
This is the only thing what is disturbing me.



I'll trust PP's tests over yours, thanks.

Also, they very clearly do not state that power is continuous sine wave, because as discussed, the real world does not require almost anybody to actually power that. When they do, they commission a K22 from Powersoft... if you don't know what that is, you don't need to know.

6dB crestfactor noise bursts of 200ms (AES) or 500ms (Meyer) are a much more usable measurement figure, for the real world of compressed, heavy dance music. 12dB crestfactor for these periods is indicative of almost everything else.

Where the issues really lie, for me, are with amps like the LA12X that use only 8ms and 20ms bursts for their ratings.

Sadly the XTA APA4E8 hasn't been reviewed by PP, but I have gone through their own spec sheet in detail. It has a lot of storage capacity internally, and the output side is super strong, but the limit is still going to be the power supply - perfectly reasonable, given the focus on touring, and the real world.

Let's have a look at some world-class touring 4 channel amps, shall we? Sinus goes first, various burst signals second.

XTA APA4E8
All channels driven (230V)
RMS sine wave long term continuous power with all channels run
simultaneously (over an hour assuming 20 degree ambient)
3000 W (4*750W) one hour



Lab Gruppen PLM12K44



L'Acoustics LA12X aka CAMCO Q-POWER14



d&b D20 - no measurements of D80



Linea Research 44M20



Powersoft X4



And here's some info on XTA's test types, which are close to PP's, and why:


Isn't data lovely?


Edited by toastyghost - 13 September 2019 at 3:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2019 at 2:49pm
edit

Edited by snowflake - 13 September 2019 at 2:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2019 at 2:22pm
Its not the same as long term heating power / real power, or it is not with a signal other than a continual sinewave.  Its the RMS voltage of the sine wave while it is playing, but not long term.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2019 at 12:21pm
"RMS means Route Mean Squared, it does not mean continual power, or real heating power."

No, Root Mean Square means exactly that!  Smile

Here:





Edited by Earplug - 13 September 2019 at 12:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote U.Viktor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2019 at 11:59am
I was unable to measure even ~400W continuous per channel on the X4, if I remember correctly.

If Powersoft says X4 is a 4* 1600W amp.. it could be OK!

But keep in mind it sold as 4* 5000W amp, total 20000Watts which are very, very far from the reality.
This is the only thing what is disturbing me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2019 at 10:12am
Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

No, 100W rms with 12dB crest factor is 12.5W real power.

Continual sine wave is 3dB crest factor, 6dB CF is 1/2 the real power (50% Duty cycle),  9dB CF is 1/4 the real power (25% duty cycle) 

Very heavy bass in some music can be as low as 6dB crest factor, most music is higher, 9-12dB typical.  


I had always assumed that into a resistive load the RMS power was equivalent to the real power. so are people defining RMS power as the power that would theoretically be delivered by a sine wave signal with same peak voltage as the actual signal (which is not a sine wave)?

PP

Yes basically that is what they are doing, peak voltage x 0.707.  But the test signals are often sine waves with duty cycle.  EG when a manufacturer specs 1000Wrms@8ohms 6dB crest factor, it might be a 1KHz sine wave but with 50% duty cycle, 1ms on / 1ms off, then they take the RMS voltage of the sine wave when its on (89.4V) and calculate the 1000Wrms@8ohms power with that.    

RMS means Route Mean Squared, it does not mean continual power, or real heating power.


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