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Which cab formy beyma 12mi100's?

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Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2016 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

most of the dancetech designs don't strike me as being very refined. Seems more the kind of "build dis kinda box, throw in whatever driverz yu have, it will make some noizz (proceed to drink beer)" 
 
perfect 😊
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2016 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by JBK JBK wrote:


Thanks for taking the time :)



I swear, speakerplans forum is like an addiction....... Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2016 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by JBK JBK wrote:

Thanks earplug but as bob4 stated I'm not fond of throwing any driver in a random enclosure ... Hence why I come searching for someone with real world experience with them drivers.

Also, if i made two or three of them boxes stacked side by side, some drivers would aim directly at each other? this doesn't feel right...

Again I mentionned mt122 130 121TDA etc but they're not made for this driver. We can't afford building boxes and then see if it's good, I'd hope someone would've made the test and give their experience.




Yes, those cabs would need to be stacked on top of each other, or a large gap left between them. 

I just did a quick search and found these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Martin-Audio-MH212-Philishave-Midrange-pair-of-cabs-with-RCF-L12P24-/361697546269?hash=item5436da901d:g:PPQAAOSw65FXudgm

One of the best mid-cabs ever made. So you could just sell your Beyma´s and buy those!  Smile



 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2016 at 8:50pm
Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:

Originally posted by JBK JBK wrote:

Also, I'm thinking of adding a horn to gain some db, to save the cost of adding cabs.

On the web I found people saying those drivers are OK in a mt122 mt121 or mt130, or even altec m17, but not frequency plots etc, neither simulated or recorded.

I can't comment on the suitability of your driver (I'm sure there are other members who can), but I think 200 Hz to 1 kHz is doable with a decent 12".


ok, so I remembered that there is some info on this subject in the speakerplans faq:

http://speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq10
Quote
The best drivers for mid horns have a high Fs (resonance) and a low Qts. A high BL factor is also important. Basically this means that you want a driver that has a stiff suspension, is well damped and has a strong motor. A "tight" driver some would say. You can do a quick sum to see if a driver is suitable for horn use. Take the Fs, divide [...] by the Qes. This is called the drivers efficiency bandwidth product, for 12" drivers and smaller for use in horns a figure above 180 is good. Figures above 200, like with the PD 122 are very good and should work well in horns.


Beyma 12MI100 :
EBP = 58/0,23 = 253
BL =21,6
-> should be useable!

now we just need someone who can do a hornresp sim of it in a suitable DIY horn, like mt122


Edited by bob4 - 06 September 2016 at 8:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatfreddiescat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2016 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by Earplug Earplug wrote:

Originally posted by JBK JBK wrote:

Thanks earplug but as bob4 stated I'm not fond of throwing any driver in a random enclosure ... Hence why I come searching for someone with real world experience with them drivers.

Also, if i made two or three of them boxes stacked side by side, some drivers would aim directly at each other? this doesn't feel right...

Again I mentionned mt122 130 121TDA etc but they're not made for this driver. We can't afford building boxes and then see if it's good, I'd hope someone would've made the test and give their experience.




Yes, those cabs would need to be stacked on top of each other, or a large gap left between them. 

I just did a quick search and found these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Martin-Audio-MH212-Philishave-Midrange-pair-of-cabs-with-RCF-L12P24-/361697546269?hash=item5436da901d:g:PPQAAOSw65FXudgm

One of the best mid-cabs ever made. So you could just sell your Beyma´s and buy those!  Smile



 

+1 effin loud as well
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JBK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2016 at 9:30am
Well thanks guys for taking the time, speakerplans is an addiction indeed !

I saw that http://dubsounds.free.fr/dubforum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3669

The guy (blackboard jungle soundman) is still making those, they're designed for the 12mi100 (that's the driver they are using in), When selling the horns they give the dimensions of trapezoidal boxes suited for those horns.

Given the fact that we're no pro builders nor designers I think this would be an easy solution (just build a trapezoid box, no funny horn business with angles everywhere). Also I've heard BBJ and while it's not my favorite sound in terms of quality and clarity they do the job!  If i get the time and patience I'll try to sim the drivers in a mt122. Maybe not a cheap solution but easy.

As for the martin audio, thanks but I won't buy something I've never heard :/ also check our sound we want to build boxes with the same wood so that it stays coherent visually.


Edited by JBK - 07 September 2016 at 9:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2016 at 10:25am
"As for the martin audio, thanks but I won't buy something I've never heard"

Ok, fair enough - but I´d say that anything made by Martin is going to be pretty good/better than some DIY horns, especially the Philies that definitely have stood the test of time... 

Also I note that you don´t have any processor. So how do you hope to align any horn cab you buy or build to the other speakers in your stack? That´s just asking for more problems. So unless you do take the plunge and invest in a DSP, you may be better off just sticking with simple front-loaded cabs.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JBK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2016 at 10:38am
Yes I intend to buy a processor if it's the case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2016 at 7:57pm
Did you see these comments?

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:


According to my simulation for closed box, above 200 Hz enclosure size doesn't matter too much. Excursion stays mostly below xmax regardless of enclosure size. So without knowing your exact enclosure I can say that if you cross over at 250 Hz, you can give your drivers full power without a problem, and reach 130 dB with a pair of 12MI100. 

But dropping crossover frequency below 200 Hz will very likely get you into trouble. You will exceed xmax and get distortion! Maybe even damage your driver. 

The datasheet also has a power compression chart, according which you might get up to 4 dB of power compression at full power. So there is a limit to what you can get out of these guys in closed box.    


 

Originally posted by bob4 bob4 wrote:


looking again at the pictures of your stack (looks nice btw Thumbs Up) I see the mid boxes have a big distance between the individual 12" drivers. This is the reason why you hear this "phasing", and it is the first thing you may want to change. The drivers will couple much better if they are right next to each other (like the bullet tweeters in your array). Maybe you could build one smaller box with tighter spacing to try it. That should decrease the "phasing" sound you described significantly. 

I estimate that your current mid box has an internal volume between 80 - 100 litres.  

According to winisd, closed box will have very similar frequency response for a wide range of box sizes. Basically it doesn't matter if the box is 20 or 100 litres. The only difference will be that cone excursion is limited more by small enclosures. 





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JBK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2016 at 11:42am
Yes thanks for those insights.
The fact is that with a horn I expect to gain a few db , and directivity. as i doubt my cp380 can go down to 1000Hz

So now I saw those moulded horns on redlion and they were made for the beyma 12mi100, so it seemed a good solution, not financially but the most simple technically ( no need to sim anything, it's real world proven combination) in order to gain db (with horn) and directivity (over 1000Hz with an angle)

Maybe your solution is the simplest in order to get rid of the phase issues but I'm affraid it would still lack directivity (which is not the major issue btw) over 1000Hz, and maybe it would still lack some volume compared to the other bands, but we could just build one more box and buy 2 more hps to compensate)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 September 2016 at 10:06am
http://https://www.beyma.com/products/compressiondrivers/1CP380M8


according to datasheet power rating is 70W AES above 1,5 kHz, the second rating is probably thermal maximum.

1,2 kHz is recommended as lowest crossover frequency.

107 dB sensitivity on a horn -> ~125 dB SPL with 64 W input, +6 dB for using four horns -> ~131 dB total. Maybe 3 dB more for peaks.

according to winisd, one of your mid boxes should be able to take full power (800-900W) and deliver around 130 dB. So in theory one of your mid boxes should be able to keep up with all four HF horns. The second box provides a little bit more headroom....


 
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