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Mini Scoops - Reality check

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mooreb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mooreb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2017 at 10:52am
Originally posted by B_Bender B_Bender wrote:

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Ideas I presented here/on FSP, I've seen ppl building on foreign forums, laughing about money they are making.

So time for spoon feeding to stop, & engagement of elbow grease here, methinks.


Smile


Edited by mooreb - 11 January 2017 at 10:53am
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Diaz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2017 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by valve head777 valve head777 wrote:

Thing is, if you get serious and actually want to discuss how, for instance, a dog leg affects a design all you ever get is lots of criptic crap and a load of winks ;-)
those who really do know keep it to themselves as far as i can see.

Im quite sure that someone can find such informations and the cryptic crap is sometimes a calling to catch up more infos on a certain topic but actually a lot of knowledge is buried in pages full of memes and swaggering who has the loudest scoop etc..
As this thread shows you, you also can get real good answers and even find some experienced real soundman who are willing to sum things up, help you over the next step and lead you the way.
The fact that some who are commercial speaker developer share their knowledge but won’t reveal their secrets, their last artifice, is obvious.
I only think that its all about two principles, "standing on the shoulders of giants" and "each one teach one".
So the one who already learnt something should pass it on. If this is done in an accumulative way, with method and with a serious intention knowledge can grow. I just don’t feel very assisted by getting answers like to buy full Scoops when my question is about Mini Scoops.
Yes we are luck to have a lot of ambitious developers who shared their plans and helped develop new cabinets (Rog, Staiper, Hugo etc.) but without the lively feedback of the forum this would have never happened.
So its not about getting everything served. A short link to some page sometimes is enough to find the way on his own.
Very often i just felt like in a swamp of meaningless trivia than in an experts forum.
So this is just a plea for the quality of information that's getting shared and a clear statement on all the trolls to stfu.

As i was getting super answers my contribution to this plea will be to make real world measurements with the mini with oberton 18 NXB 1600 and PD. 1851 in comparison and give the forum a feedback as thereby help other Mini Scoop builders make a choice. I'm no expert on measurements but I'm confident that someone also will support me by pointing out mistakes etc. or even post a link where i can find informations about to do it right (i know google is my friend;)

...so im off, building Minis now...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2017 at 8:46pm
I have extensively read the scoop section and have seen how certain ppl through the years asked others about design nuance. Those ppl used the knowledge of others. Yes, great info is stored within the depths of the forum, so anyone can extract the knowledge contained, true, however there are ppl who have gone through this process but still don't share the knowledge they've built up.
That's a bit like saying 'here's what can be done, but don't ask me just read the forum' which isn't very helpful.
Amans comments on geeks vs entertainment also rang true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 January 2017 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by Diaz Diaz wrote:

Originally posted by valve head777 valve head777 wrote:

Thing is, if you get serious and actually want to discuss how, for instance, a dog leg affects a design all you ever get is lots of criptic crap and a load of winks ;-)
those who really do know keep it to themselves as far as i can see.

Im quite sure that someone can find such informations and the cryptic crap is sometimes a calling to catch up more infos on a certain topic but actually a lot of knowledge is buried in pages full of memes and swaggering who has the loudest scoop etc..
As this thread shows you, you also can get real good answers and even find some experienced real soundman who are willing to sum things up, help you over the next step and lead you the way.
The fact that some who are commercial speaker developer share their knowledge but won’t reveal their secrets, their last artifice, is obvious.
I only think that its all about two principles, "standing on the shoulders of giants" and "each one teach one".
So the one who already learnt something should pass it on. If this is done in an accumulative way, with method and with a serious intention knowledge can grow. I just don’t feel very assisted by getting answers like to buy full Scoops when my question is about Mini Scoops.
Yes we are luck to have a lot of ambitious developers who shared their plans and helped develop new cabinets (Rog, Staiper, Hugo etc.) but without the lively feedback of the forum this would have never happened.
So its not about getting everything served. A short link to some page sometimes is enough to find the way on his own.
Very often i just felt like in a swamp of meaningless trivia than in an experts forum.
So this is just a plea for the quality of information that's getting shared and a clear statement on all the trolls to stfu.

As i was getting super answers my contribution to this plea will be to make real world measurements with the mini with oberton 18 NXB 1600 and PD. 1851 in comparison and give the forum a feedback as thereby help other Mini Scoop builders make a choice. I'm no expert on measurements but I'm confident that someone also will support me by pointing out mistakes etc. or even post a link where i can find informations about to do it right (i know google is my friend;)

...so im off, building Minis now...


To be fair, you did get a fair bit of discussion on the design of minis. They do work by the reflex principle despite what people want to call them. If the people that do get irate about that thought about it a little more they would realise that a reflex assisted enclosure works in a very similar way to a scoop. They both combine the wave from a rear of a driver over a limited bandwidth to be in phase with the radiation from the front. In a reflex the port radiation is symmetrical about the tuning frequency, in a scoop you have a horn bandwidth dictated by various properties of the horn (throat, mouth, flare rate) and rear chamber volume. The horn also adds gain of course, which is why a full size scoop is more efficient. I suspect a mini may differ from a typical reflex 18" box simply because the port is so large in area. When you read textbooks it is often suggested that the area of a reflex port should be close to the surface area of the driver it is assisting. A lot of reflex boxes do not do this for size constraint reasons and port air velocity is higher as a result. I wonder if the relatively low air speed in a large area port is advantageous when shifting a very large amount of air. This is something that small scale signal TS based simulations will not tell you unless you do it yourself specifically. 

Scoops and mini scoops ain't so different in principle when you look into the physics. On the most simple level one just has more gain from the rearward wave.

To design a mini, approach it like any other reflex box. If you are careful then you will get close to your target. You might have to build one prototype to measure and then a second to get the tuning where you want it.

When you make your mini, measure the near field SPL in the port and at the driver. That will be interesting.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B_Bender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2017 at 9:52am
Originally posted by valve head777 valve head777 wrote:

there are ppl who have gone through this process but still don't share the knowledge they've built up.

Big problem is the people who haven't been through the process but pretend they have LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2017 at 12:04pm
Whatever. I'm out
Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2017 at 12:41pm
I've offered before and am still willing, dates allowing, to do dual ch FFT on a preamp output and scoop rig's response to see what they're really doing compared to the input signal. In a soundcheck style, it could likely be done with the same mic and a quick cable swap from each control tower too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JBK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2017 at 12:57pm
Well, about measuring a preamp output, a PC with free software + any decent soundcard  can do the trick (plus a pre and a few cables of course, you don't even need to hear it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2017 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

I've offered before and am still willing, dates allowing, to do dual ch FFT on a preamp output and scoop rig's response to see what they're really doing compared to the input signal. In a soundcheck style, it could likely be done with the same mic and a quick cable swap from each control tower too.

Good luck with that. :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m0gsi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2017 at 1:04pm
Have you got a test location toasty?


Edited by m0gsi - 12 January 2017 at 1:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sinai Sound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2017 at 2:17pm
Happy to bring a 

PD1852 Polar, Hog and possibly shortman midi

Along with JTS pre and Alex Sage pre

I'd offer to bring a K20, but well, you have more than most kyle haha
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 January 2017 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by JBK JBK wrote:

Well, about measuring a preamp output, a PC with free software + any decent soundcard  can do the trick (plus a pre and a few cables of course, you don't even need to hear it. 


Sure but my point is to compare that to what the rig actually puts out - it's dual channel FFT so shows if the rig is louder, quieter, goes lower etc compared to the signal it is being fed. You can do it with music if all we are interested in is magnitude response.
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