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Proline 3000 vs EV Q99 bridged

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richardstringer View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 May 2017 at 9:33am
I have 4 Wharfedale Delta 218B double 18" subs and next year i'm upgrading their drivers to RCF L18P300 drivers but I have a question. What would give me the best sound and powerful bass from using either 4 Proline 3000 amps running the subs with one Delta 218B sub driver per Proline 3000 channel into 8 ohms or powering the 4 subs each with a bridged EV Q99?

I know the Q series amplifiers are rated at 2,800 watts average power into 4 ohms bridged but it's a 1khz rating and also 1%THD but I guess power within the frequency range i'll use the subs in could be as little as 2,2200 watts average power wheras the Proline outputs 1,1,00 watts per channel into 8 ohms but i'm not sure whether it's a 1khz spec or a full bandwidth 20hz-20khz spec plus I have no idea about the distortion spec either as neither are stated. I know powering the subs with the Proline 3000 amps is giving me virtually no headroom but I never clip my system ever and I always set gain structure using a piezo and 400hz sinewave while doing the initial system setup at gigs.


Edited by richardstringer - 04 May 2017 at 3:10pm
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THECANDLEMAN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote THECANDLEMAN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 2:05pm
something in the description is off.

I think your 218B's wil be 4ohms each (2000watts rms / 4000watts peak)

If you have 4x you need :

2x amps that can run 3-4000watts at 4ohm stereo
or
1x amp that is 2ohm stable with 6-8000watts stereo at 2ohms




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardstringer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 3:07pm
No if I were going to go for 4 Proline 3000 amplifiers i'd run one sub per amplifier but run one cable per driver in each sub off each channel of the Proline 3000 and then select 'Discreet' on the switch on the back of the subs. This would give each driver 1,100 watts and run the amp at 8 ohms per channel.Selecting 'Discreet' mode on the back of the Wharefdale Delta 218B subs enables you to power each driver with a seperate amplifier or amplifier channel. Selecting 'Parallel' mode enables the sub's drivers to operate together in a parallel way and then any amplifier or amplifier channel connected would see a 4 ohm load.


Edited by richardstringer - 04 May 2017 at 3:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMorison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by THECANDLEMAN THECANDLEMAN wrote:


If you have 4x you need :

2x amps that can run 3-4000watts at 4ohm stereo
or
1x amp that is 2ohm stable with 6-8000watts stereo at 2ohms


If it were me, I'd just run them @ 4Ω, one box per channel on the Prolines if that's what's already available, and not worry about the theoretical 3 or 4dB that's being "left on the table" by doing so.

Other posts by the OP indicate he's planning on running  6hr+ events of bass heavy material, so it's probably safer not to try and wring every last dB out of the speakers in the first place - there'll be less power compression so the difference will be less noticeable anyway and it'll lead to the speakers having a longer useful service life.

Plus there's less current draw and there's half as many amps to haul in to the venue (or on the other hand, there's already a full complement of spare amps on hand if they're already in the rack(s)).

FWIW,
David.


Edited by DMorison - 04 May 2017 at 3:44pm
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richardstringer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardstringer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 4:06pm
Yeah but running the subs with one sub (double 18 enclosure) per channel means the subs would be only getting 1,500 watts average power when they can both together in parallel handle 2,000 watts average power. If I ran the subs in discreet mode (there's a switch on the back of the subs to flick between parallel or discreet) and then gave each driver 1,100 watts average power the result would be i'd have a little bit of headroom as aposed to absolutely no headroom running one sub per channel in parallel mode.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 4:16pm
Increase from 1000W to 2000W is 3dB. Decrease from 1000W to 500W is -3dB.

Your brain will require 0.8 to 3dB to perceive a change in volume, and the brain perceives 6dB as a doubling of volume.

However, the power compression, in going from 1000W to 2000W, will be a loss of more than 3dB output. So all you will be doing is wasting electrical energy as heat, ageing voice coils, and making everyone slightly more thirsty. Power compression averted in going from 1000W to 500W may give you 2-3dB more actual output, and your voice coils will be cooler....
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
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richardstringer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardstringer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 4:38pm
No 10db is what the human ear perceives as twice as loud professional sound engineers from the USA who have 30 or more years experience told me that years ago. But the extra power will only be used as headroom, not to get more spl.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 5:07pm
Ahh, sheeeet bouy, wad d' fuk d eye no! Yee Ha....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardstringer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 5:44pm
Just saying ok, I was told by the professionals on the Pro Sound Web forum a few years back and from what I know they're some of the worlds best sound engineers, some of work for professional sound system manufacturers like EV, EAW and Danley Sound Labs.

But it doesn't matter my point was it's better me having a bit of headroom than absolutely none and underpowering the subs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMorison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by richardstringer richardstringer wrote:

Just saying ok, I was told by the professionals on the Pro Sound Web forum a few years back and from what I know they're some of the worlds best sound engineers, some of work for professional sound system manufacturers like EV, EAW and Danley Sound Labs.

But it doesn't matter my point was it's better me having a bit of headroom than absolutely none and underpowering the subs.

As with most things audio, the 10dB/doubling is more of a rule of thumb than an absolute.

For more detail, look up the ISO226-2003 Equal Loudness curves - they're nominally centred 10 dB apart, but you'll see that due to the way human hearing sensitivity changes with frequency, they actually get a lot closer together in the bass region, so Matt's 6dB is a lot more realistic for the kind of usage you're talking about in this thread.

Also, the whole "underpowering" thing is also (at best) a frequently misunderstood generalisation rather than an absolute; here's a good article on speaker powering: http://www.bennettprescott.com/downloads/LoudspeakerFundamentals.pdf if you want to have a read. Bennett is definitely one of the people in our industry with his head on right (and the patience to bother to write things up clearly like that too).

Cheers,
David.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardstringer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 8:13pm
Yeah I know and it's mainly due to people's hearing as far as i'm aware as people hear slightly differently. As for underpowering I know underpowering is only a real problem if you plan on running your system into clipping to get the spl you need out, then it's best to have higher power amplifiers to get the spl you need so you still have a bit of headroom and get get the spl you need with clean, unclipped signal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mikkel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2017 at 8:19pm
Why not get an amp that'll do ~2500w@4r instead of proline? Save weight/money of having two less amps to buy.
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