Speakerplans.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > General Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - advice for an RLA inspired system
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

advice for an RLA inspired system

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 11>
Author
Message
Racks&Stacks View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 10 February 2006
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 204
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Racks&Stacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2017 at 10:48pm
I used to live in nyc (97-03) and worked with a number of people who were present during those 80s golden years.  Could you list some of the smaller venues RLA outfitted?  I know he did lots of spaces, but all anyone talked about were the dancefloors holding 500+ dancers. I'm not aware of any smaller midbass box designs of his.

You are probably set on some sort of modular system design, but I don't think I could go back to compression drivers falling off after 6khz and drivers all physically way too far from each other to combine cohesively, not to mention the difference in sound from the grills to midway into the room.

Those stacks certainly have their cult appeal, I'll give you that, but I like hearing the vocals and instruments coming from one point
Back to Top
Hemisphere View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 21 April 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2272
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2017 at 11:15pm
There is definitely something magical about old-school sound tech. Hard to put a finger on what it is exactly. 

People are very snobby about the past when it comes to technology - in both directions! Snobby in that they reckon nothing modern is ever any good, and snobby in how they assume if something was old then it can't have been better, or more specifically, that it can't have had more merit as a product of engineering, and that it can't have been better tuned into the basic task of pleasing the senses, than the cutting edge of today. 

At the end of the day it comes down to the sheer amount of time, care, and raw technical expertise that went into engineering the technology at the time. A master can produce a masterpiece with a piece of charcoal, and a fool can create junk with access to every tool under the sun.

I get the same feeling from well mixed and mastered electronic music from the 80's and 90's. You know that the producer often had just a handful of basic tools at their disposal, compared to the nearly infinite expanse of virtual tools available today, but they mastered them like a musician masters their instrument. Sometimes the less variables you have to play with the better you can get at something, and other times it's almost the opposite, where the more hands-on you're forced to get with tweaking the fundamentals, the better you can master them.

It's getting easier and easier to skip those stages. Everyone is demanding more convenience, more automation, and a wider variety of tools. For some tasks it definitely produces a better result, for others not, so it's new, it's different, but it's not necessarily better.

People distort their guitars because distortion is what people enjoy in that context. There'll be an extent  to which this is true in all sound reproduction, especially in electronic music where the synths are such 'other-worldly' instruments, in the same way as over-driven electric guitars. They're not supposed to sound 'real', so who's to say exactly how they should sound? The Roland TB-303 is a classic exactly because it doesn't sound clean and predictable. It has something that the electric guitar has. Character.


Edited by Hemisphere - 25 July 2017 at 11:15pm
Back to Top
budney View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 24 July 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2017 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

I used to live in nyc (97-03) and worked with a number of people who were present during those 80s golden years.  Could you list some of the smaller venues RLA outfitted?  I know he did lots of spaces, but all anyone talked about were the dancefloors holding 500+ dancers. I'm not aware of any smaller midbass box designs of his.

I can't remember off the top of my head sorry, there are sooo many venues and events mentioned in those books, spanning nearly 15 years so I'd have to go back and read through with a fine tooth comb, which would take forever. I highly recommend reading those books if you're interested in the history of djing. 

I guess a more general term would be that I'm designing it with the new york style in mind, not just RLA. JBL slant lenses, and the crossover that allows the dj to change the gain of the subs and tweeters during the night. The other components of the system, the mid range, the subs to some extent, aren't as important as there were many versions used back then, but the crossover and slant/tweeter combo I feel was what was common throughout.



Edited by budney - 26 July 2017 at 1:19am
Back to Top
BJtheDJ View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc
Avatar

Joined: 28 November 2012
Location: Bristol
Status: Offline
Points: 884
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BJtheDJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2017 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

<snip>not to mention the difference in sound from the grills to midway into the room.<snip>


One of the things that the crowds used to love back in the day - they didn't want the sound the same all over the dance floor, they picked the part of the dance floor that sounded right to them:

The deaf ones dancing in front (almost inside) of the subs

The ones dancing on top of the subs so that they could get a good kick in the gonads

Those dancing in the centre of the floor under the floating tweeterboxes that liked their sssss sssss sssss

And those dancing beside the stacks where it was a bit quieter Wink

These days there's careful design so that the sound is, as much as possible, the same all over the dancefloor which doesn't take into account the possibility that whilst the DJ's music choice might be superb sometimes their understanding of what it sounds like (even with monitors right beside him) to the paying punters can be lacking, or lacking understanding.
If your vaccinations were mandatory and nobody in your class had measles,
then you know that you're not a Millenial kid.
</f
Back to Top
fat_brstd View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 23 August 2008
Location: Melbourne, OZ
Status: Offline
Points: 2125
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote fat_brstd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2017 at 11:40pm
Anyone interested in Richard Long Audio & the evolution of sound systems in New York should watch this video, whilst it is about the disco era that grew into Hip Hop there is a lot of speaker system stuff covered especially in the second half.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G13bR0B0-8



Edited by fat_brstd - 25 July 2017 at 11:41pm
Adrians Wall Sound System
Melbournes Rootical Warrior
Roots - Dub - Steppers

facebook page
Back to Top
Racks&Stacks View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 10 February 2006
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 204
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Racks&Stacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2017 at 11:45pm
You could also argue that today's djs do not leave the booth often enough or play the same room consistently enough to grasp what differences there might be between the monitors and dancefloor.  Nostalgia ain't what it used to be
Back to Top
Pinyorouk View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc


Joined: 31 January 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 550
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pinyorouk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2017 at 12:22am
Originally posted by fat_brstd fat_brstd wrote:

Anyone interested in Richard Long Audio & the evolution of sound systems in New York should watch this video, whilst it is about the disco era that grew into Hip Hop there is a lot of speaker system stuff covered especially in the second half.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G13bR0B0-8



Thanks, watching it now. I find such documentaries very interesting.
Back to Top
budney View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 24 July 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2017 at 1:07am
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

There is definitely something magical about old-school sound tech. Hard to put a finger on what it is exactly. 

I agree, excellent post. There's also a place and a time for both kinds of tech. I wouldn't even dream of doing live sound with an old analogue desk and a huge fx rack, why would anyone bother when the new digi stuff is great, for that application. Whereas sat in a studio, with lots of time to get the most out of the equipment, some tasty analogue contraption that maybe doesn't work 100%, you get results that digital gear just can't replicate. It also goes the other way, like recording. No way in hell could I be bothered with tracking to tape, cutting and splicing in this century! Maybe rarely to get that sound, but for practical every day use its nonsense. But this isn't turning into analogue vs digital all over again, obviously both have their merits. 

The same with new vs old sound systems. Dub and reggae sound systems use old designs, scoops that went obsolete long ago, but no one ever questions why they build those systems. It's obvious why, it works well for that kind of music. The same reason as I am, because the kind of music I want to play is mainly music that was played through those disco systems back in the day. 

Initially the disco systems were built around the style of music, but as they became more and more popular it switched and the music began being built around the style of sound system. A lot of the tracks from NY back then were written to be played on a RLA sound system, because thats what systems the artists used to hear when they went out. Those sound systems were probably never perfect on paper, but as you say it was those distortions and discrepancies that gave it that specific sound, which the tracks were written for, either consciously or subconsciously. The same way that pretty much all reggae music is written with a proper dub stack in mind.

If someone goes out now, goes to a techno rave in a dingy warehouse, with a standard Funktion 1 or Void rig, hearing the latest techno dj play their latest beats, then they're going to go home and make a track with that experience in mind. The music they write will be with that sound system they just heard in mind, and will sound best on that kind of system. I know thats what I was thinking when I first started to go clubbing and was into the modern stuff. The same then applies for the older stuff that I'm now into, that music was written with the new york style stack in mind.

If you have a big club now, with the wide range of genres that get played everywhere with so many djs, it makes much more sense to have modern systems that can take a beating and sound the same whatever style of music is played. but that's not what I'm going for Wink

Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:

You could also argue that today's djs do not leave the booth often enough or play the same room consistently enough to grasp what differences there might be between the monitors and dancefloor.  Nostalgia ain't what it used to be

It's funny that you should say that, because I don't plan on having monitors. If I go through all this time, money and effort to make this system then theres no way in hell that I'm not going to spend all my time listening to it! I'm going to put the dj booth smack bang in the middle of the dance floor, so I always know exactly how it sounds. If I want to give that much control to the dj, then the booth needs to be in the perfect place to hear it.

I read about all this years ago. Levan extensions and tweeter arrays and special crossovers to get the RLA sound, and I always just thought it was that, reading material and it would never be possible today. But then I heard a sound system in that style, and realised that even though it may be hard to do, it can be done. It was hands down the best thing I have ever heard, bearing in mind it was playing disco and older dance music. I heard Arthur Russell tracks, and they just sounded at home perfectly. Some Francois k dubbed out remix and all the instruments were spinning around in the middle of the room. Early proto house, every drum beat pumped and every vocal was right in your face. They were all written for that style of sound system! Occasionally I heard a modern track through that system, and I could hear the compression of the new track compared to the old. Never once have I heard that in any modern system, the dynamics were incredible. It wasn't nostalgia to me, it was right there in front of me.



Edited by budney - 26 July 2017 at 4:13am
Back to Top
budney View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 24 July 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2017 at 1:12am
Originally posted by BJtheDJ BJtheDJ wrote:


One of the things that the crowds used to love back in the day - they didn't want the sound the same all over the dance floor, they picked the part of the dance floor that sounded right to them:

That is a great point that I had not even considered, very valid! Although to be honest I always wanted to be stood right in the the middle and kept on getting pushed aside by the more vigorous dancers! I guess in that respect I did want it to sound the same everywhere, purely because I could never get to where I wanted to be LOL


Edited by budney - 26 July 2017 at 1:46am
Back to Top
budney View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 24 July 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2017 at 1:41am
.

Edited by budney - 26 July 2017 at 1:45am
Back to Top
Racks&Stacks View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 10 February 2006
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 204
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Racks&Stacks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2017 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by budney budney wrote:

The same with new vs old sound systems. Dub and reggae sound systems use old designs, scoops that went obsolete long ago, but no one ever questions why they build those systems. It's obvious why, it works well for that kind of music. The same reason as I am, because the kind of music I want to play is mainly music that was played through those disco systems back in the day. 

Initially the disco systems were built around the style of music, but as they became more and more popular it switched and the music began being built around the style of sound system. A lot of the tracks from NY back then were written to be played on a RLA sound system, because thats what systems the artists used to hear when they went out. Those sound systems were probably never perfect on paper, but as you say it was those distortions and discrepancies that gave it that specific sound, which the tracks were written for, either consciously or subconsciously. The same way that pretty much all reggae music is written with a proper dub stack in mind.

If someone goes out now, goes to a techno rave in a dingy warehouse, with a standard Funktion 1 or Void rig, hearing the latest techno dj play their latest beats, then they're going to go home and make a track with that experience in mind. The music they write will be with that sound system they just heard in mind, and will sound best on that kind of system. I know thats what I was thinking when I first started to go clubbing and was into the modern stuff. The same then applies for the older stuff that I'm now into, that music was written with the new york style stack in mind.

If you have a big club now, with the wide range of genres that get played everywhere with so many djs, it makes much more sense to have modern systems that can take a beating and sound the same whatever style of music is played. but that's not what I'm going for Wink

It's funny that you should say that, because I don't plan on having monitors. If I go through all this time, money and effort to make this system then theres no way in hell that I'm not going to spend all my time listening to it! I'm going to put the dj booth smack bang in the middle of the dance floor, so I always know exactly how it sounds. If I want to give that much control to the dj, then the booth needs to be in the perfect place to hear it.

I read about all this years ago. Levan extensions and tweeter arrays and special crossovers to get the RLA sound, and I always just thought it was that, reading material and it would never be possible today. But then I heard a sound system in that style, and realised that even though it may be hard to do, it can be done. It was hands down the best thing I have ever heard, bearing in mind it was playing disco and older dance music. I heard Arthur Russell tracks, and they just sounded at home perfectly. Some Francois k dubbed out remix and all the instruments were spinning around in the middle of the room. Early proto house, every drum beat pumped and every vocal was right in your face. They were all written for that style of sound system! Occasionally I heard a modern track through that system, and I could hear the compression of the new track compared to the old. Never once have I heard that in any modern system, the dynamics were incredible. It wasn't nostalgia to me, it was right there in front of me.

I enjoy your enthusiasm.

Back in the late 90s, the Twilo club in NYC also had british progressive house and trance producers supposedly making tracks specifically for the system.  Perhaps they had once come to visit and hear sasha and digweed.  However, when you mention proto-house - even considering the clubs rla did outside of nyc, I have my doubts that all those italo and uk new-wave producers were referencing rla systems during their mixdowns.  I worked at twilo and still have the console cover and the wooden thing to keep djs from mixing past 8 on the lower booth urei.  I worked at Vinyl.  Both clubs had to sound good for a wide variety of musical content and even Levan played a lot more than just disco, new-wave and garage.

How did the same tracks sound on a synergy horn?  The first time I heard one, it was a spotify quality version of norah jones - come away with me, and 15 meters away it still felt like she was singing just in front of my nose. Not to turn this into a danley plug, but when you mention funktion one or void, I'Ve never gotten goosebumps hearing their systems, and I go to berghain from time to time..

Go and find your modular system, just realize that it sounds like the goal posts are being adjusted.  Most modern systems do not feature the same sound everywhere since most speakers do not have uniform coverage across their frequency bands and the inverse square law applies in every deployment.  I think most people find their favorite dancing spot not due to how the music sounds but due to aesthetic and behavioral aspects.  Trainspotters, go-go dancers, cruisers, groups needing space, proximity to bars and bathrooms, visual design features...  Given how many playces with bad sound still thrive, there is much more going on in the partying experience than sound quality. Levan used monitors.  15k is not going to get you the "authentic" sound you want.

I enjoy reading this thread, and if you haven't be sure to go through the tech-talk archives on kevorkians wave music site, while being careful to read through the voodoo marketing.  

Back to Top
budney View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 24 July 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2017 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by Racks&Stacks Racks&Stacks wrote:


I enjoy your enthusiasm.

Back in the late 90s, the Twilo club in NYC also had british progressive house and trance producers supposedly making tracks specifically for the system.  Perhaps they had once come to visit and hear sasha and digweed.  However, when you mention proto-house - even considering the clubs rla did outside of nyc, I have my doubts that all those italo and uk new-wave producers were referencing rla systems during their mixdowns.  I worked at twilo and still have the console cover and the wooden thing to keep djs from mixing past 8 on the lower booth urei.  I worked at Vinyl.  Both clubs had to sound good for a wide variety of musical content and even Levan played a lot more than just disco, new-wave and garage.

How did the same tracks sound on a synergy horn?  The first time I heard one, it was a spotify quality version of norah jones - come away with me, and 15 meters away it still felt like she was singing just in front of my nose. Not to turn this into a danley plug, but when you mention funktion one or void, I'Ve never gotten goosebumps hearing their systems, and I go to berghain from time to time..

Go and find your modular system, just realize that it sounds like the goal posts are being adjusted.  Most modern systems do not feature the same sound everywhere since most speakers do not have uniform coverage across their frequency bands and the inverse square law applies in every deployment.  I think most people find their favorite dancing spot not due to how the music sounds but due to aesthetic and behavioral aspects.  Trainspotters, go-go dancers, cruisers, groups needing space, proximity to bars and bathrooms, visual design features...  Given how many playces with bad sound still thrive, there is much more going on in the partying experience than sound quality. Levan used monitors.  15k is not going to get you the "authentic" sound you want.

I enjoy reading this thread, and if you haven't be sure to go through the tech-talk archives on kevorkians wave music site, while being careful to read through the voodoo marketing.  


When I say proto house, I guess I was referring to the American stuff, Colonel Abrams, Peech Boys and the early Chicago sound, that kinda stuff. Obviously the European tracks were never written with an RLA system in mind, but they were probably influenced by the imports that were coming over from America in the first place. Also I should clarify that when I say disco, I really just mean dance music, more of the rnb kind, than the more cheesy stuff like Gloria Estefan, or the poppy stuff like Saturday Night Fever. I mean more of the garage and prelude records sound, the underground dance music of the time. I'm also referring back to the style of Mancusos Loft, which was the spiritual home of the DJ's back then anyway. I'm not saying that I'll ever get close to the loft, I'd never have that kind of money, and you're right theres more to a party than the sound system, but the idea still stems from there. Having never been, theres only so much you can take from reading accounts online, but then having heard a sound system in that style, my ears have been opened as it were. All of this is talked about in great detail by Tim Lawrence, definitely worth a read for anyone who's interested.

Also I'm not going to have a rule of "STRICTLY OLD NY DANCE MUSIC!!", theres 2 kinds of music to my ears, good and bad. I'm not saying everything modern is bad, nor am I saying everything old is good. I want to be able to play good music and for it to sound great, Boards of Canada for instance, Tangerine Dream, maybe some Beatles, who knows. Also I've got a friend who's really into his reggae, which I feel could also work well on this style of sound system. Just that most dance music that I prefer, does tend to be on the older side. The previous post that mentioned early electronic producers mastering their limited tools come back to mind.

I only mention Funktion 1 and Void because thats all you really see for most events in the UK, the ones that aren't in proper clubs with proper systems like MOS or Fabric. And I agree, I have never been wowed by their sound. For modern stuff they're alright I guess. I've been seeing the Danley name getting thrown round the more I ask about this, I would like to hear one of their systems at some point. I know that Tom Danley is responsible for the Labsub design, which is fantastic, and all those tapped horns that he produces certainly look interesting. I've been doing a bit more research on them, it looks like something I may go for since they're so compact. 

Maybe 15k is a bit too ambitious...I'm still in the planning stage of this, so if it ends up costing more then so be it, it'll just have to go in phases. Maybe I'll have to use a shitty Behringer crossover and a regular mixer until I can afford something more fancy. Also I don't think I'll ever get the 'authentic' sound without spending major amounts of cash. The Tad drivers that RLA used are very expensive, so thats out of the question, initially anyway. I know Levan used monitors, and I normally would too, but I want to hear this sound system in all its glory, not some small monitors in the corner of the room somewhere.

I know that most clubs are about more than the sound, and thats why I want to shy away from that and do what other clubs aren't doing. That's also why I want 4 stacks around the room in the corners. I'm so fed up of everyone facing the same way, all looking at the dj, taking photos and videos for instagram instead of loosening up and having a good time! I'm not saying that I'm going to have a great sound system and just shit everything else, but this will be my priority. If people don't care about it, then they don't have to come, they can go to the Wetherspoons down the road for all I care.

I've spent a lot of hours going through every thread on the wavemusic forum. If that forum hadn't died and registration was still open I'd be posting on there as well, but unfortunately it's time has passed. I even emailed Francois K to see if I could sign up, but got no reply. At least it's all been archived, those old posts often link to other websites which have long since disappeared.


Edited by budney - 26 July 2017 at 2:43pm
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.