Quad 12" Isobaric Ported Sub |
Post Reply | Page 123> |
Author | |
FrederikMA
Registered User Joined: 19 July 2017 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 76 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: 14 September 2017 at 9:21pm |
The system consists of 3way hornloaded midtop and puns to match the sound of the midtops as i think this is more crucial than lowend extension (like labhorns). I was considering selling the lab12s but thought they could justify staying if used in such a cab. Although i think your are right about the labs not being sufficient under puns, i do not plan to invest in several 21s to use in a two-part bas configuration. The c-weightedFletcher-Munsoncurvewhalesongsubharmonic search is simply a black hole for good intensions and engineering. I will probably just sell the labs and build more puns down the road then! Best regards, Fred |
|
bass*en*mass
Old Croc Joined: 03 September 2009 Location: "unknown" Status: Offline Points: 4009 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
4 double punishers running as "kicks" could do with some more lowend spl`ability than another 8 lab12s in "any" cab could offer imo.. (like 4x double 21"s in a low and narrow tuned bandpass for example, at 25/30-45hz you need sheer Sd and xmax/displacement, the more the better..)
that said, if i`d own 16 lab12s i would either just use/build more puns and run at slightly lower cutoff/power if required or swap to labhorns and proper kicks - depending on sort of gigs/transport/Tops etc. obviously.. |
|
FrederikMA
Registered User Joined: 19 July 2017 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 76 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Tanks for sharing your findings DJK - quantifying these tradeoffs (and then to build a functioning prototype) is how we will raise the bar of the DIYs!
This link shows quite a few variations of the 6th and 8th order bandpass. [URL= ][/URL]https://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxes6.asp#1 I have 8 lab12 drivers sitting that i wish to use below my 4 double punishers when doing bass heavy gigs. So I've looked at the 6th and 8th order from 50Hz to as low as the cabinet will play in a reasonable small enclosure. The above link however opens up to some variations which hornresp does not allow me to sim. Which direction would you choose with such a narrow (1 octave) bandwidth? Best regards, Fred |
|
_djk_
Old Croc Joined: 23 November 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6002 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
A little work in a box program with isobaric designs will probably have you changing your mind.
While you only lose 3dB in efficiency, you lose 6dB in maximum output capability (model it and see). The Qts of the BMS suggests a small equalized and vented alignment (6th order) might work the best. A 2 cu ft 2nd order sealed box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.18% efficient (84.55dB). A 2 cu ft 4th order vented box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.36% efficient (87.56dB). A 2 cu ft 6th order vented box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.90% efficient (91.54dB). RCA was the first company to use equal-pressure coupling (isobaric) in a loudspeaker. They used a 12 coupled to a 15 to reduce the box size by a factor of 4x. The drivers were in series, and the inside 12 received more power (the penalty for a small box that went deep in the bass) ******************************* RE: nope
In Reply to: RE: nope posted by Scholl on December 13, 2010 at 14:46:43:
We have a fixed box size and cut-off frequency. Each box requires a different driver to be optimum for the box type (2nd, 4th, 6th). This can be seen as if you would convert a 2nd to a 4th the reference efficiency cannot change, but the 4th would go about 1/3 octave lower. In theory we should be able to see about a 3dB difference in a 2nd vs a 4th if the box size and cut-off frequency are kept constant (which we do, 84.55dB vs 87.56dB). What you need to ask is how the 6th can be 91.54dB, an increase of 3.98dB? The answer lies in the optimum driver having a lower Qts which in turn raises the mid-band reference efficiency, but causes the deep bass to roll off. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and there isn't one here either. The deep bass roll-off is compensated for by the bass boost in a 6th order system, typically 6dB at the box tuning frequency. That's cheating! Well, sort of. Comparing output at Fc (2nd order) vs Fb (4th and 6th order), the 6th order is only about 1dB more that the 2nd order, and is actually 2dB less than the 4th order (low Qts drivers have no low bass). But the mid-band reference efficiency really is 6.99dB more that the 2nd order, or 3.98dB more than the 4th order. The 6dB boost in the 6th order is mainly at Fb and drops off rapidly above there. An octave above Fb the boost has declined to only 1.5dB or so. Distorting is not excessive as the largest boost is at Fb and does not cause excessive cone motion. Levels of F1 in program material tend to be on the order of 6dB~10dB lower than F2 on most musical instruments, so the boost at Fb doesn't eat up all the power on real music. The 6th order vented system looks to be a free lunch (violate the Iron Law), but as we see, doesn't. Keele's actual examples were for a 2nd order with a 15, 4th order with a 10, and 6th order with an 8! See example 2 on page 29 of the pdf (which was pg.28 of the actual paper) From examining various equations for efficiency and LF cut-off I have concluded the optimum driver for the highest efficiency and lowest cut-off would have a Qts=0.312 and be a 6th order system with an Fb=F3=Fs=Faux with the filter (Faux) having a Q=2. I can address alignment jamming (using non-optimum drivers) if desired. **************************** A 6th order Quad 12 (cat is optional). Eminence drivers with 8mm x-max, rubber edge, similar parameters to the BMS driver. 101dB/1W/1M (8Ω load), -3dB at 27hz (Q=2, 27hz filter). Will handle 1100W without exceeding the x-max, less than $100 a driver (USA). Edited by _djk_ - 21 August 2017 at 7:15pm |
|
djk
|
|
flinnt45
Registered User Joined: 30 April 2013 Location: london Status: Offline Points: 111 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Look at decware for a quad box
|
|
JAH Kreator Hi Fi
|
|
ceharden
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 05 June 2005 Location: Southampton Status: Offline Points: 11776 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Try now, not sure why copying and pasting the original link from the address bar didn't work
|
|
Risc_Terilia
Young Croc Joined: 15 December 2007 Status: Offline Points: 689 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
404
|
|
ceharden
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 05 June 2005 Location: Southampton Status: Offline Points: 11776 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Four 12" drivers in isobaric pairs....
Edited by ceharden - 02 August 2017 at 11:14pm |
|
snowflake
Old Croc Joined: 29 December 2004 Location: Bristol Status: Offline Points: 3118 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I thought people were saying they didn't know what was inside (although it seems likely they are a bass-reflex with manifold mounting). |
|
FrederikMA
Registered User Joined: 19 July 2017 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 76 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
So in the search for a high cabinet size to output ratio I guess it's about finding drivers with suitable Thiele Small parameters for a small volume reflex manifold or finding drivers with higher sensitivity to compensate for the reduced sensitivity of the isobaric loading. In practice i would suspect the reflex manifold to win out on sheer output to cabinet size, disregarding the allegedly reduced distortion of some kinds of isobaric loading.
|
|
cravings
Old Croc Joined: 30 January 2007 Location: Ireland Status: Online Points: 7441 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
i think that was the point elliot was making. that at a glance, they might appear similar. but they're actually different.
|
|
mobiele eenheid
Old Croc Joined: 15 August 2004 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 1568 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
But from a spectator view (the outside) they might look the same, which is the point Elliot is trying to make.
That being said, you can see the drivers in the central (manifold chamber), that are mounted as they would in a manifold, you can see the ports and there's only about 40 litre per driver to play with, so there isn't exactly much else you can do that makes sense. The patent has expired and he is the first to cram 8 x 12" drivers in such a small enclosure. Let's ask Aman Gebru! |
|
Post Reply | Page 123> |
Tweet |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |