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How do Danley speakers work?

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_djk_ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _djk_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2017 at 6:46pm
"As I look at it, it seems it's still not very large area for air to get out trough."

Ever look at the slits in a phase plug for a horn driver?

Typically a 10:1 ratio.

I don't generally recommend going over 4:1 for cone drivers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2017 at 7:02pm
_djk_ Yes, I´ve seen these before. Just wasn´t sure it´s used as it is.
Then it seems to be about okay :-D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2017 at 11:33pm
Tapped horns don’t need the large frontal area that front loaded horns do. Look at the TH221 for example.

It’s all about the impedance matching to the air in front.

Edited by toastyghost - 21 August 2017 at 11:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 August 2017 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by kevinmcdonough kevinmcdonough wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by kevinmcdonough kevinmcdonough wrote:

well technically its both lol. 

At lower frequencies, the ones produced by the big cone drivers, similar to what Tom was saying the ideas is that you design them so that physically they're within 1/4 wavelengths of their neighbours (in practice, as close as can be gotten) and so they are supposed to combine together and travel from the array as a single source.  So like your second drawing, you're hearing the product of many boxes together, combining in phase (hopefully!)

At high frequencies, the wavelengths are too small combine like this, so it works a little more like the first drawing, with each box having a vertically narrow dispersion horn/waveguide for the HF and covering their own section of the audience. 

In practice, with the realworld never being perfectly in line with the theory, they both do a bit of both. Though the low frequencies are much more drawing 2, and the high frequencies much more drawing 1.

K



Sadly not quite so, it does vary with frequency but a few minutes with a simulation will easily show that as the array gets longer, the vertical dispersion narrows because of the summation of the boxes. If your line array horns do not combine, you don't have a line array…

Things get even more interesting when you try to 'fix' the vertical narrowing (and rearward beaming of said array) by doing the J curve.

This one is worth a read too:
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/danley/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/line-array-paper.pdf


Of course you're correct, as the simulation software shows when you add more boxes to a line array the dispersion narrows. Or more specifically the frequency at which the dispersion can be controlled lowers due to the length of the line, so the software will show it narrowing. But as said this all relies on the sources being 1/4 wavelength apart ad acting as a single source as Danley describes, which for the cone drivers in a line array cab they generally are.

However for the HF, it becomes increasingly hard for the HF to be that close together and keep the 1/4 wavelength rule. At 2KHz for example, which isn't actually gonna be all that much higher than where we've just crossed over from the small 4 or 6 inch cones or whatever most LA cabs have if they are a 3 way design, the wavelength is already down to about 17cm and 1/4 of that would be 4.25cm. 

So even there the Comp has just started to kick in and we're beginning to get to the point where the spacing of the drivers is already around or slightly over 1/4 wavelength. So from there up, really throughout most of the compression drivers range, they're gonna be further than 1/4 wavelength apart. 

So was always my understanding was that at this point, while the cone drivers combine fairly well lower down if designed correctly, for most of the HF they essentially act as separate horns, just like normal HF horns would act when you splay 2 or 3 point source cabs horizontally. 

Of course it'll get louder by adding more cabs, and point them at the same place (especially at the top of the array for example when the hang is usually pretty straight and many horns will be pointing at the same area and their patterns will be overlapping) but it'll build up the HF power/volume in a slightly comb filtery way, where there will be a mixture of in and out of phase things happening depending on the exact wavelengths and path differences of that exact frequency just as there is when normal horn patterns overlap), unlike lower down where the cone drivers have a much easier time maintaining the 1/4 wavelength spacing and they act more as one source. 

Then as the array curves towards the middle and bottom, they are pretty much working as their own horns covering their own area of the audience as the narrow pattern minimises their overlap.





Missed this but in principle you’re right but this is the entirety of the waveguide’s work - read the DOSC patent and the optical parallels it draws on to see how they attempt to combat this. Ribbons go a step further.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 August 2017 at 5:43am
Toastyghost: I'm well aware of that. The ratio of cone area and output area seems to be still very high.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 August 2017 at 9:47am
Perhaps Danley should be informed?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 August 2017 at 11:34am
Bhaha, no. He knows best. It´s just I´m curious. Collecting data on tapped horns, and i´ve read many times, that common rule of thumb (again) is, that the mouth area shouldn´t be smaller than Sd of all drivers in the horn. mr. Danley again proves for us, that rules of thumb are pretty weak, and only work with very conventional designs. Once you go "radical" at it, things work differently then expected.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 August 2017 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by Crashpc Crashpc wrote:

Bhaha, no. He knows best. It´s just I´m curious. Collecting data on tapped horns, and i´ve read many times, that common rule of thumb (again) is, that the mouth area shouldn´t be smaller than Sd of all drivers in the horn. mr. Danley again proves for us, that rules of thumb are pretty weak, and only work with very conventional designs. Once you go "radical" at it, things work differently then expected.


It’s not just that exit operating on its own though, look at how huge the horn is that it exits into - which produces additional loading to the air at the shared mouth
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote odc04r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 August 2017 at 4:05pm
Yup, you must consider both the front and the back of the driver as a function of frequency. It is like bootstrapping an electronic circuit. Impedance changes depending on what each side of the driver is seeing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 August 2017 at 6:10pm
Sure. It firstly begun at the thought that it only comes from those small circular holes. Now it´s obvious there is hell lot on this. I was firstly wondering if TD did some insane miracle or of it is just few pieces of quite obvious facts I don´t see... Now it´s all understandable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 August 2017 at 7:35pm
The small holes aren't ports by the way, they're acting as physical bandpass filters. Well, some of them, others are ports, enabling the whole horn to act as a tapped horn for extra low frequency extension – that's a core difference from Unity Horn to Synergy Horn, the addition of tapping to extend the response.

For example, here's the SH96 from the front:


And from the rear:


If you look closely, the openings for the 4" drivers on the top and bottom are a different size and location from the apex than the ones on the sides too.

That's also an old photo, the current version uses a B&C DE880TN instead of the Faital HF unit.

Edited by toastyghost - 22 August 2017 at 7:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 August 2017 at 9:06pm
I did not suggest these are ports. I´ve also seen some presentations mentioning the same. The holes doing bandpass. No issue with that. No issue with anything now...
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