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Dub Specialist Sound
Old Croc Joined: 15 November 2013 Location: Smethwick Status: Offline Points: 4873 |
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Posted: 10 August 2017 at 12:49pm |
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Just searching around today and found these drivers
looking very like RCF supossed to be a replacent driver @ 129£ Original RCF pic taken form BAran |
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Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE...
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Crashpc
Registered User Joined: 26 February 2008 Location: Czech Republic Status: Offline Points: 465 |
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I've seen some copies of these many times. Could find some sellers even now. I think that you get what you pay for. Works well for the money, but doesn't really stand up against originals when you put high load on these.
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Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Dub Specialist Sound
Old Croc Joined: 15 November 2013 Location: Smethwick Status: Offline Points: 4873 |
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Yes i think the same tbh
but for a budget driver , might be ok for starting up a sound
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Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE...
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Crashpc
Registered User Joined: 26 February 2008 Location: Czech Republic Status: Offline Points: 465 |
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Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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mobiele eenheid
Old Croc Joined: 15 August 2004 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 1568 |
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@CrashPC: If it has a Qes of 0.33 and a 4" voice coil but it weighs 5 kg... it shouldn't be mentioned under Subwooferové reproduktory, as it has no Xmax (not mentioned) to speak of.
Edited by mobiele eenheid - 11 August 2017 at 10:29am |
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Mircea Bartic
Old Croc Joined: 18 February 2005 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 2582 |
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cheap chinese knockoff. there are a lot of those in Romania
low quality. Excellent as a door stopper though ;) |
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general manager & head designer at nexus-acoustics research
http://www.facebook.com/nexus.acoustics.research Ex Nexus_3 |
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doller
Young Croc Joined: 19 July 2014 Location: japan Status: Offline Points: 509 |
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There was a guy here on the auction site selling about 10 of them off. He claimed they came out of a D and B sub. I thought that they looked RCF but the price was way too cheap. I wondered if it was a a knock off.
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Crashpc
Registered User Joined: 26 February 2008 Location: Czech Republic Status: Offline Points: 465 |
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Mobiele: ...as if no seller ever messed up or didn't make a mistake. Yes, it's cheap stuff, but even then, it can work well to its expectations and to the price. Got surprised few times. The seller is quite reputable here, so at least if it turns out to be a dud, he will most propably fully refund the customer. If that one didn't have such high Fs, I'd propably try it as a more mobile sidekick for smaller listening sessions instead of hauling with my 21"....
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Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Hemisphere
Old Croc Joined: 21 April 2008 Status: Offline Points: 2272 |
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If you want a budget driver then just buy a budget driver, not a fraudulent clone that's trying to look like another driver to trick people into buying it (of course people don't assume it's a legit RCF but you've assumed because it looks like the RCF original then the specifications must be comparable).
12" ferrite with 3" voice coil, 7kg, a proven original(ish) design. $96.43 each or $93.54 each if you buy 4. xmax says 3.4mm but they use conservative rating methods, other popular manufacturers would specify this driver as 6.7mm. I can't even sim the P Audio versus the 'Master Audio' driver to compare because they don't publish enough parameters to actually simulate it. Generally the only reason for this is that there's something to hide - ie, it's shit. On a side note, I like how the retailer you linked to is called 'BS Acoustic'. This is a bit of a shot n the dark but just to try and get a vague idea of the performance of the Master Audio driver I guessed the Re/Vas/Bl, and simmed it against the P Audio. The bass extension is about the same but it has a much less even response in the same size and tuning enclosure. 3dB down across most of the range but with a 3dB peak just before F3. The cone moves further with less watts than the P Audio also. (7.5mm excursion with 300w vs 6.5mm) Both results are basically exactly what you'd expect, so while it's hardly scientific, it gives you a very rough idea why it's not a good idea to use this driver. It won't be unusable by any means, it's not a total doorstop, but it's definitely not optimal and there are better options out there for the same or less money. Edit: Another budget option, even cheaper still! Fane 12-300 Sovereign http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=FANSOV12-300 As low as $85 each from Blue-Aran, and again the xmax is rated conservatively. With the calculation method used by Italian manufacturers (voicecoil winding height - magnetic gap depth / 2)+(magnetic gap depth / 3), the 12-300 xmax would be rated at 7.33mm, which is fairly respectable. The chances that the Master Audio driver which is too ashamed of it's TS parameters to even list them will perform better than either of these budget drivers, which are both $20-30 cheaper, is low. And you know you're not supporting a business that thinks it's acceptable to rip off other manufacturer's designs and attempt to mildly defraud their customers, so it's win win really. I found this undercover footage on YouTube of the Master Audio factory, so you can get some idea about their methodology: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG6oCrtef5A
Edited by Hemisphere - 11 August 2017 at 11:22pm |
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thirtha
Registered User Joined: 12 November 2014 Status: Offline Points: 77 |
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I once came across a B&C DE 750 rip off, that looked so much like the original (compared it back to back) that it would have stumped the boys from B&C. They (the Chinese / Indian Importer) claimed that they had bettered the product. I did a back to back comparison on a ME60 horn, and boy was I impressed. Stunned would be the right word. I picked up 8 for the price of the 8 original B&C recon kits. This was one time my morals went out of the window. My morals don't exist when it comes to buying lighting fixtures. The way the original Italian manufacturer treated me when it came to service, left me with such a bitter taste, my morals took a nose dive and now I don't think twice buying the Chinese versions.
Saw a RCF Lf 18 x 451 that was so well ripped off, it would be impossible for anyone to distinguish. The build quality was way better than the original, and a person who has never seen RCF products before would have picked the fake and labelled it original. The person who was selling it gave me a open challenge and said that if this (the rip off) was in any way inferior (if not better) than the original he would refund the entire amount back. I did not take up the challenge, but I had no reason to doubt his claim. Its such a risk to buy drivers in India today. Its high time speaker manufacturers follow RCF who now allows the buyer to verify his purchase by verifying / registering their product on their website. In my home town, for every 10 passive VRX LA1, tat are doing the rounds, 6 are fake.
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Crashpc
Registered User Joined: 26 February 2008 Location: Czech Republic Status: Offline Points: 465 |
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Hemisphere: No. There is nothing fraudulend towards the customer, if it´s different brand, doesn´t claim it´s the other one, and the parameters are openly put in description or spec sheet (even thought they´re not good or enaugh of these)
Don´t change facts for feelings. One guy at friendly forum bought this model: http://www.bsacoustic.cz/hlubokotonove-reproduktory+61/pa104/ And here comes the measurement: http://repromania.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=96951#p96951 (there are some images in the upper post). I still don´t see what´s that wrong with it, when you know you´re going cheap. Even response is not a problem for bass anymore. Especially not with stronger speakers. Try to sim B&C 12TBX100 and see. I doubt you would call that one a bad speaker, yet it behaves like that with powerfull motor... First two letters of BSACOUSTIC stand for the name (initials) of the shop owner, so implying anything else without even knowing might get into the rude deparment. Here is measurement of the suggested Fane: http://www.prodance.cz/protokoly/fane_sovereign_12-300.pdf Not bad. But the construction and power handling is different, so I can see the price difference. Anyway, We will propably not agree with each other, so I might not continue. |
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Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Hemisphere
Old Croc Joined: 21 April 2008 Status: Offline Points: 2272 |
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The reason why it's fraudulent to the customer is because the form clearly bears no relation to the function. It's been deliberately made to look like something it isn't - specifically an RCF driver, in order to give an impression of quality (unfortunately let down by an atrocious logo which looks like it came from a 1980's tracksuit). It's also illegal. RCF would be within their rights to take legal action against people selling and producing these, but of course it depends on the law which varies from country to country. Perhaps in Romania and Czech Republic the law on design ripoffs is more lax so you can find these clones sold openly in shops, or perhaps it just slips under the radar. In India this is of course the case. One other user in this thread reported someone tried to sell them to him as RCF drivers, and it's without doubt that there are places in the world that sell this exact model with an RCF badge, but the 'Master Audio' brand exists so that more reputable sellers can sell them too. I registered for the forum you linked to for image attachments to show up, but there are no measurements in any of the posts you linked to. Just some TS parameters for the 10" model.
In reality, it will perform just fine and meet most people's requirements and expectations. There's no denying that and I never did. There will be a couple of dB less SPL, a few Hz less frequency extension, the excursion limits will be reached faster, etc, but unless you're absolutely ragging it most of the time, that's not such a big deal, and if your budget is limited I can see why it might be appealing. It certainly looks the business, and it'll perform satisfactorily. But despite looking cheaper, the Fane and P Audio units I linked to, which are even cheaper still, will actually perform better! Probably not much better than the Master Audio driver, and certainly not as well as the RCF originals (which by the way you can buy from Toutlehautparleur for ~$150, so it's only $35 extra for the real thing!), but the point is if you're on a budget there are legitimate options out there.
The RCF original which is 2.3kg heavier is only rated at 450w. The Fane driver lists it's power handling as:
Which is what you would expect from a 5kg ferrite driver, although the P Audio at 7kg only has 300w AES, so the chance a considerably lighter driver will be 500w is zero. It's a confidence trick, basically, and you've been suckered in. You believe their 500w RMS rating, you believe the look and apparent build quality of it (cast aluminium frame versus stamped steel frame on the cheaper drivers I recommended) will hold true, and the difficult part about this is that to a considerable extent it will, and most users will be satisfied, but what matters to the customer on a budget is, are you getting the most for your money? If that were true with the Master Audio products, you might have a point and I wouldn't disagree purely on ethics, but it's not true. You can get better for the same or less money, from a reputable company, with a warranty and customer service. Edit: Check the date on the Fane measurements you linked to by the way. They're from the same decade as Master Audio's logo! Current plots from Fane: Edited by Hemisphere - 12 August 2017 at 11:43am |
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