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Arts dual lab 12.

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Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Arts dual lab 12.
    Posted: 22 August 2017 at 12:01pm
Has anyone else made any?
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Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2017 at 10:07am
Didn't think so. Shame shame. Moderator you can delete this thread it is just wasting space. I will start a new one with build pics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sn95 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2017 at 8:29pm
Are you talking about Art of diy audio?
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Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2017 at 4:08am
Sorry Art Welters. Yes. I would love yo shake his hand and say thank you. Amazing box. I think. I want to do a build thread. just no time at the mo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2017 at 11:24am
the normal reflex? ppsl? 
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Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2017 at 11:50am
normal reflex didn't know there was a ppsl.
Has anyone made this really? I have been searching and it just seems like a dead design. I made it kinda because of your recomendation bob.
It is a little monster. four are just silly. for the size. It's tiny. It hits 30hz hard Art I think is being humble with his sims.
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Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2017 at 11:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2017 at 12:18pm
How does it compare to a single 18?
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Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2017 at 1:14pm
That depends on the single 18 and who made it.
I would say the jrx ,EV eliminator boxes (which I hear alot of all the time) do not stand a hope in hell.
Art says that two of these will keep up with a 218 I agree. He also said that in the low extension they will win out. That is because of the 13mm xmax of the Lab. I agree. Thease will maybe cost the same to build as a cheapo 118. But the bass is so clean and low. With not a whole lot of power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2017 at 2:41pm
Quote Art says that two of these will keep up with a 218 I agree
How?

They're only 89db sensitive, so they will move a lot of air and they'll play deep, but not loud. At all. They also reach their xmax really fast due to low (15) BL.

If you want a high excursion low cost dual 12" reflex use the BMS 12s305 imo. About the same price as a Lab 12. Rated 11mm excursion but BMS rate conservatively so it's more like 14mm compared to the Lab's 13.


More importantly, they have 20.14 BL and 95dB sensitivity, and double the RMS power handling of the Lab 12. So they can take a lot more power AND they make more noise with that power.

You can tune a pair of Lab 12's to 29Hz in a 150 litre box and they'll be flat to about 33Hz, but they reach 13mm xmax at 675w input, or about 119dB SPL. 125dB max for two double 12 enclosures. So equal to a pretty entry level 1x18, but with a lot more air movement.

What's worse is you can hardly even EQ the 30Hz up, because of a broad excursion peak running from around 25 to 50Hz, centered around 38Hz.

You could load them to a larger box and/or tune them lower, but then the xmax runs out even faster., and that excursion centre point will drop even closer to 30Hz.

By contrast, 2x BMS 12s305 tuned to 39Hz in the same box is flat to 38Hz, with an SPL of 128dB for one double vented enclosure.

If 30Hz is a priority, you can still get 123dB at 30Hz by tuning the BMS box to 32Hz, but in this design there's an excursion trough centered on 32Hz, so with 3500w of amp power, careful limiting and careful application of EQ, you can achieve 127dB at 33.5Hz. About 10dB louder than the dual Lab 12.

Edit: Subjectively I'm sure they'll sound amazing, and they'll sound huge. That massive double stacked magnet, the low Fs and accordingly the low centered excursion peak will give an incomparable reproduction of those lower registers, and if you're playing indoors you're unlikely to ever find their output wanting, with enough boxes in small to medium events, so when I say 'not loud at all', I really mean relative to a 218 or other similar enclosures. Loudness is definitely not the strong point of the box. If you tried to use these for outdoor events you'd run into issues, guaranteed.



Edited by Hemisphere - 25 August 2017 at 3:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hemisphere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2017 at 5:41pm
Just had a proper look at Art's design (like an idiot I just guessed it in this comparison), and I can see the sense of it a lot better now.

The option I didn't consider: tune it higher and make the box bigger (180 litres, 35.6Hz). Then it can take more power. 126dB peak at 40Hz so a pair could reach 132dB. It's a fair comparison with a 218 sub, so long as you cross it to kicks or midtops as low as possible. (less than 60Hz ideally)

The plot just looks ugly in WinISD (5dB peak at 40Hz), but that's a pretty good place for a peak in a sub. You still can't get much true 30Hz in a compact box with these drivers, but you can get a good amount of 33-38Hz if you EQ the box. And if you're lucky enough to excite a room mode in that region then you'll definitely experience strong 30Hz.

I stand by the recommendation of the BMS, but so long as you're giving the drivers enough space it's not as much louder as I suggested. But it is 2-5dB louder, and plays truly to 30Hz without EQ.

Where the BMS gets really interesting is when we look at it's performance in a 115 litre box (57.5 litres per driver) tuned to 35.5Hz (with grey line dual Lab 12 in the same box)


Again with the BMS, if we're willing/able to use high power loading and careful EQ/peak limiting, it can approach 126, or even 127dB at 34Hz in that tiny box.  (plots pictured are taken at approximately the excursion limits of each pair of drivers, no EQ applied)

Given the relatively cheap price of the drivers and their high power capacity, you could load 4 of them into a 230 litre reflex box (100 x 50 x 65cm external?), chuck a Behringer iNuke 6000DSP at it.. Pretty heavy but still a lot smaller and lighter than the 218 that seems to be the benchmark here. 133dB at 34Hz for the price of a single 21" driver, and it would move as much air as 2x 21" drivers with 9mm excursion as well.


Edited by Hemisphere - 25 August 2017 at 7:19pm
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Young Croc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote doller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 August 2017 at 1:03am
Art himself says that the BMS will out perform the Lab. But I can't get BMS. I have to import them.
I also know that on paper this doesn't seem so impressive. Not very loud. I can say for sure they are loud. I humd and ahhrd for well over a year. I wanted to design my own. Just don't have the time and needed subs for up and coming events. I am happy I would have been wasting my time.
I have increased the size of the box a little to compensate for the double baffel, bracing and handle boxes. They need bracing.
On the 218 It really depends on which one you are buying. If you have Meyer 218's and alike then no they will win hands down. If you have peavey dh then I would take Art's every day of the week.
I think that alot of people maybe have Labs lying around wondering what to do with them. This is a really good sounding box. Output aside it sounds good. I am running them off a crappy Yamaha PX 10 and they are plenty loud enough, low enough and punchy. Over excursion doesn't seem to be a big problem. HP 30Hz butterworth 24db. LP 70hz. If I was giving them program maybe a different story. I might up that to 48db.
I am taking them out tonight for the first real world test. Outdoors.Oh dear! As we all know it can be a real let down. Let's see.
Thank you for the plots and comments. Hemisphere.
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