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Miles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Miles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 September 2017 at 4:22pm
https://www.pioneerdj.com/de-de/news/2017/pioneer-pro-audio-introduces-the-xy-3b-and-xy-2/

LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 September 2017 at 4:36pm
The late windmill tilter did a 8x8", 4 on each side of a V baffle.

He reported a dip in response at around 800Hz, which seemed to correspond with the height of the V, and a standing wave/pathlength difference between bottom and top driver.

However, with that particular Mackie or RCF 4Pro6001,, and Tony's cab, the 8" mid would take over at around 600Hz, so the dip from the V should be out of band, depending on exact dimension.

In truth, that shallow/short a V will work very like a reflex baffle, just in a smaller overall cabinet size, so your volume is small(er) behind driver.

HR has a mode for simulating longer "Offset Driver Horns", think of the bass/mid of a Synergy for example, but that only really shows any contribution when there is a significant length of the side of the V, compared to the size of the driver. So for a 12" driver, the V side wall needs to be at least 36", to get a "Horn" effect, and changing where the driver is in that length from the corner, and volume behind, etc, will all then have an effect.

For the sakes of simulating a typical V baffle, keep to BR sims, and calculate the reduced volume behind the baffle.
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
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bass*en*mass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bass*en*mass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 September 2017 at 5:32pm
have to disagree to some point there matt, tonys 412 exhibits the dip at about 650ish hz and a boost at around 250ish hz due to the v alignment.. the larger the "chamber" infront of the drivers the lower the boost and dip imo..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 September 2017 at 6:42pm
Here are some of my yesterdays sims:






The driver magnet in the horn actually helps a lot to put the dip outside the needed band.
It seems that in my attempt with very shallow V - I.E. driver magnets inside the baffle, due to dimensions, I would actually need to add some "phaseplug-ish" piece to put some excessive volume caused by the cones shape, out of the horn.... Otherwise I won´t make it:


It´s 11"x11"x20" box. Extremely tiny, and should outdo very good 12"s....
Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DMorison Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2017 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by Darkstar Darkstar wrote:


Quite similar designs huh? LOL
The above is RCF, with "propetary" mid horn-driver combo.

You may already know this but for anyone else playing along at home, RCF & Mackie were both owned by the same parent company for a while (in about the late 1990's/early 2000's), so it's not at all surprising that certain components and design ideas were used in both lines.

The original SRM450's were built in RCF's factory in Italy, IIRC.

FWIW,
David.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 September 2017 at 11:59am
Originally posted by bass*en*mass bass*en*mass wrote:

have to disagree to some point there matt, tonys 412 exhibits the dip at about 650ish hz and a boost at around 250ish hz due to the v alignment.. the larger the "chamber" infront of the drivers the lower the boost and dip imo..
No, not those ones, these ones:


difficult to keep up, as he made so many designs!!

In the 8x8", he crossed the lower 4 8" at 750ish, and then ran the upper 4x8" to some higher frequency to meet comp IIRC.

But I can imagine the 4x12", having a different dip, as baffle would have different dimensions.

Measure, and tweak?
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darkstar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 September 2017 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by DMorison DMorison wrote:

Originally posted by Darkstar Darkstar wrote:


Quite similar designs huh? LOL
The above is RCF, with "propetary" mid horn-driver combo.

You may already know this but for anyone else playing along at home, RCF & Mackie were both owned by the same parent company for a while (in about the late 1990's/early 2000's), so it's not at all surprising that certain components and design ideas were used in both lines.

The original SRM450's were built in RCF's factory in Italy, IIRC.

FWIW,
David.

Didn't quite know it, but I expected the reason behind the nearly identical designs to be some kind of relationship between the companies. It's sad nobody invested in such designs, it made RCF shift everything to line array and because of these strict business relationships it also made every other Italian company go towards said enclosure typology.
That mid horn has and is still being abused though isn't it?
Bass =/= Enough
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _Natty_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 September 2017 at 1:32pm
ok lots of contributors here! nice! Ill take a full read asap, very busy at works nowadays!

for now id like just to point how and why im looking for infos about this type of enclosure.
Its almost 10 years that i play with this mid config:

-2xreflex 12"
-1x 2" horn

all from 200hz to 5000hz.
The result is quite nice and ive found that putting 1, 2" over 2 12" is the right balance! otherwise too much or too less of something...

now i need to replace the mids. no way to no do that... dont ask me why pilz.
So my first attemp was about choose the right 12" driver:
-im using 12hpl76 very musical driver but maybe have some little lack of power around 800-1000hz
So new one!!!!
after a lot of reading on this forum ive decide to move to 12pe32 as seems one of the most used b&c speaker in horns. 
I phone my friend in the farm but i stop me badly saying that is an old and un-usefull driverd and putting my attention in the upgraded version 12mh32.
I take one and i start to sim to find an horn enclosure that can solve the problem of 2 speaker over 1 driver, and so puttin 1vs1 ;)
No way with my little knowledge! all the sims giving me bad bad result and big dip and hills!

So back to the 2 vs 1 solution Ive found this "V" loading solution that can solve the "space" problem, but now im not shure that 12mh32 is a good speaker for doing that... but fortunally ive seen the sim made by Crashpc View Drop Down  

can I use that as starting point for doing my sims?


cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 September 2017 at 5:47pm
Hey Natty. I did´t really get the setup description you use, but whatever. :-)
I also don´t see how 12HPL76 lacks power at 800-1000Hz.
(see measurement here: http://www.prodance.cz/data/attachments/mereni_12HPL76.pdf ; )
12PE32 is very good and very sensitive driver, but it propably won´t keep up at lower frequencies around 100-200Hz, as it will need heavy boost there, and that will lead to hitting Xmax (and Xvar) barrier of that driver soon. It should do about okay, but just barely, if you won´t push it hard.
12MH32 is little different, but I would recommend it for your setup. It also has better Xmax and Xvar figures.
For horns, there is not many good and working designs where one 12" in a horn does mid band and goes to 100-ish Hz. For obvious reasons. It gets bigger, and harder to develop.

2x 12MH32 should do in the V-slot configuration.
While you can take some inspiration and starting point from my development, you need to know few details.
1) The more mouth area and the more open V, the better. I´d start at around of Sd value of both drivers. So your starting S3 value is rather around 1000.
2)You need as small S1 value as possible. But it´s hard to do with tighter V-slots, as there will be not much place for mounting the screws to the speaker and baffle at that small area.
To solve this, I actually expect the area large enaugh so it makes space for the mounting, but after mounting these screws, I will put something like "phaseplug" to make the area small (close to zero).
3) The inside cone volume creates something like additional chamber, or different shape to the horn. This again, would be bad for your frequency response. That way, if you sim your horn as conical, you don´t count with this additional volume. If you do count with it, the horn shape should be different, wider at S2. But that will mess the upper frequency response, where your driver should add to the mids. So you need the horn to be flatly concave. What you do to accomplish that, is that you fill the space by the bigger "phaseplug" going deep into the horn.
Similarly to the turbosound horns shapes.
https://www.soundbroker.com/dynImage/?listingPicid=35953
Maybe, different shape, copying the inner cones volume... I.E. Startrek ship shape :-)

This alone needs some development. Also while I use 8"s and everything is shorter, I might get into 900-100Hz territory with crossover frequency with slight (equalizable) dip in the that frequency. With 12"s, you might be in the 600ish Hz range, and that´s serious trouble with highly sensitive 12"s with high power handling. There is not many drivers being able to work in 1000-1500W box down to 600Hz. I guess you have a problem.
But sim away, maybe it will end up better.
Anyway it all needs to be developed and measured.
Wish you fun and some luck.



Edited by Crashpc - 28 September 2017 at 6:20pm
Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote _Natty_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2017 at 9:44am
my prev config:

200-1000--->12"
1000-5000hz--->2"

keep in mind that the 12" was deployed as pure low mid... now ive a kick section so less sense for all these reflex...
this solution have a very nice and flattern result, even after some "clio" measurement we was so happy. perfect phase, good balance.....

Watching 12mh32 spec its seem that need some boost from 150-200 to 450hz.

Im starting my sims using your suggestion and ill put some result out asap...
Just another question...is there any difference in V horziontal or V vertical?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2017 at 6:03pm
Okay, now I understand.
It will be hard for 12"s in V-slot to go 1000Hz. It will need to be very open.
Of course, positioning matters with the shape too. It will also depend on crossover frequency.
Where the V shape is (be it horizontal or vertical) there will be better directivity control. More and better. On the other two sides, you just have a tunnel ending with the enclosure(box). That will propably create bad baffle step (sensitivity difference at certain frequency) and even more issues. So you really have to do quite thorough engineering to get things right. My 8"s should be delivered today, so I´d like to start on real hardware. But I´m busy man. Overtimes, business trip abroad on monday, some help to others, celebrations, solving my second job issues, so the progress will propably be veery slow next 14 days or so.


Edited by Crashpc - 29 September 2017 at 6:44pm
Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2017 at 8:04pm
So NDLs arrived.
http://www.picfront.org/d/9BNu
Stiff as *#ck! Hope it will manage the load around 100-200Hz after heavy EQ. Will have to tune these high.
Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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