Horn vs reflex |
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king david
Young Croc Joined: 17 January 2007 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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Posted: 03 October 2017 at 10:02pm |
Today we made a quick test, ES18(w/b&c 18pzb100 4ohm) vs 2 x sub15 (w/b&c 15pzb100 8ohm), i will post graphic results later.
since i dont need a full band test, and the weather was turning to rain (we did it outdoors), we went to test the boxes on the frequency i would mostly use them, upper bass limited to 80-150hz. they were really close in SPL, if i remember correctly the ES18 was slightly better at 80hz and the 2 x 15 were a bit louder around 150hz, but all was like 1db...they dont sound the same but also they arent that different, maybe because they are doing just a narrow range of frequencies. I didnt stay too far from the boxes and up close, 5/10 meters away the reflexes were sounding a little nicer Since the 2 x 15 would handle twice the power, they can outperform the ES18, but i think i would need minimum 6 of them with a lot of amp power to equal my 4 ES18 how i run them now. thanks speakerplan member leru sound for doing all measurements
Edited by king david - 03 October 2017 at 11:26pm |
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DMorison
Old Croc Joined: 14 March 2007 Location: Aberdeen Status: Offline Points: 1649 |
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I only looked at Neo as your goal was easy transport/stacking, it's possible some of the ferrites will be just as good as the ones I mentioned, I just haven't checked. The ones that are specifically aimed at sub use (NW100, presumably TBX too etc) usually want bigger boxes and lower tunings, which means they'll be less of an advantage for size & weight, and will be a little less efficient in the upper bass region you're wanting to operate in, and will run out of excursion earlier, so I wouldn't recommend them. You do however want something with high Xmax (or Xvar if we're talking B&C); all of the ones I suggested have at least 8mm. You could use a trapezoid shape like the X15 if you want, the boxes will be quite shallow (front to back) if you make them cuboid and that might make it awkward to stack your tops, so a trap is not a bad idea. Regards, David.
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king david
Young Croc Joined: 17 January 2007 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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Thats Great
So lets say 8 x 15" b&c neo midbass drivers (so not The tbx ps pzb or nw100 ) in a box similar To An x15 without The compression drivers should do It. .. |
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DMorison
Old Croc Joined: 14 March 2007 Location: Aberdeen Status: Offline Points: 1649 |
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OK, couldn't find TS parameters for the 4Ω version so had to make some assumptions. It looks like at full power from that amp with 4 ES18's coupled you have a theoretical 141dB max around 80-90Hz (assuming no power compression), and -5dB from that at about 55Hz. (Modelled in full space as the bass bins (Hogs?) + decking put the bottom of the box about 1.1m above ground level.) Based on that, and assuming you'd like the possibility of using the kicks as general purpose bass bins for smaller events, I think you would need 8 15's to keep up. That's based on modern drivers like B&C 15NW76/15NDL88, 18Sound 15NLW9300 or similar with vent tunings around 55Hz and boxes around 60-80l net internal volume - which will be a LOT smaller and lighter than your ES18's, and driven off your existing amp (2, 8Ω 15's per channel). They'd be small enough that you could make all 8 fit across the same width as your scoops easily enough to make the stack look coherent. You could drop to 6 drivers, if you were willing to give up about 2dB of max output. You could salvage some of that loss by tuning higher, but that tends to result in a more peaky response in the half octave or so around the tuning frequency, which may not sound as good and may make integrating the box with the rest of your system harder. Pic shows ES18's on top, 15NDL88's below. HTH, David. Edited by DMorison - 22 September 2017 at 1:20pm |
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king david
Young Croc Joined: 17 January 2007 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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i have 4ohm version of b&c 18pzb100, run by an ffa 6004, so ideally its 1500w/box but with a limiter they never see any clip, mostly just flashing the -3db light... the crossover slopes are 24db LR and eq is -1/2db at 150hz. since a 15"reflex box is around half es18, yes, i'd go for singles. basically this is the system, its sounds good, es18 sound good, maybe i'll keep them, with the 15" option if i have to set up all by myself Edited by king david - 21 September 2017 at 4:17pm |
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DMorison
Old Croc Joined: 14 March 2007 Location: Aberdeen Status: Offline Points: 1649 |
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It will depend (in part) on what drivers are in your ES18s, how hard you drive them and over what frequency range. You mention 80-150Hz in another post, what crossover slopes are you using and do you use any EQ boosts within that range? Also, do the 15's have to be singles (to help with your weight goal) or are there any other constraints eg max box dimensions?
Edited by DMorison - 21 September 2017 at 2:00pm |
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Elliot Thompson
Old Croc Joined: 02 April 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5176 |
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Reflex cabinets are not as efficient as horns where the horn is active. Bass horns are most efficient where you plan to set the frequency. One could say a double fifteen would be equivalent to a single bass horn but, I really do not know anyone would use a reflex box within the frequencies you are planning to use and expect the same results as a bass horn playing such a high frequency range in terms of bass. I am sorry to say if you cannot make the time you will always find yourself wondering which one will meet your requirements. No one can give you a direct answer for there are too many variables that comes into play. Best Regards, |
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Elliot Thompson
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Sypa
Young Croc Joined: 21 February 2013 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 921 |
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David getting too old eh ?
If you getting rid of es18s anytime send a message ! cheers |
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nickyburnell
Old Croc Joined: 06 February 2005 Status: Offline Points: 4410 |
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Message Blue Aran, he should have an answer to the driver issue.
Agree ES18 is an awkward lift |
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It's everything, not everythink!
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king david
Young Croc Joined: 17 January 2007 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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If 2 x 15 can keep up with An es18 that would be fine for me
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nickyburnell
Old Croc Joined: 06 February 2005 Status: Offline Points: 4410 |
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Or use same amount of reflex with (I have no idea) super efficient in your band drivers. This could be modeled in Bass Box Pro. Anybody know of a kick 15 that is over 100db?
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It's everything, not everythink!
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king david
Young Croc Joined: 17 January 2007 Location: italy Status: Offline Points: 1324 |
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Yes i was Just wondering how many 15 reflex i should use To equal The four horns. I could make a test but i really cant find the time
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