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PDs vs Void 18"

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Rog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2008 at 2:10am
Its just a really nice sounding cone Jake.
 
The material and profile of the cone is what gives a speaker its sound. It takes a lot of work to get a good combination of strength, efficiency and sound quality. Harder cones tend to have a greater peak at resonance, so can have what some say is a one note sound. Softer cones spread the resonance and break up nodes around a bit. Thats a very simple way of looking at it. An even simpler way is to say that a hard cone is more like a drum, and when you hit it you hear a note but a loud one at that. A soft cone is like hitting a rubber car mat. you don't hear one particular note, just a warm thud sound.
 
Unfortunatly for use with high compression ratios in horns you need a harder cone to withstand the pressure. Hece why I don't class the V18-1200 as a horn driver.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2008 at 3:00am
Originally posted by Tekasis Tekasis wrote:

Originally posted by Tekasis Tekasis wrote:

The other day a Turbomax 900 in Shortman's full scoop & PD1850 in his Mini scoop performed much better than a v18-1200 in the same scoop
 
Just to correct what I'd written before when I said same scoop, it was meant to mean in a full scoop, which has had me thinking for a long time since Levy first brought down the v12-1800 for testing.
 
That evening we were all concentrating on it in a mini-scoop as it sounded the best, especially for the cab size compared to the other drivers in a large chamber full scoop & small chamber RX18.
 
What was brought to my attention then by Ren was to see how the PD1850 was vibrating at low frequencies which was then it was explained to me that is what is what happens when the driver is un-loading, which I haven't seen mention here.
 
Can someone who knows explain what it actually means & why this happens ?
 
Is it when the driver doesn't match the cab it's in or does it mean there should have had a filter of some type fitted ?
 
This un-loading didn't happen when the PD1850 or even the v18-1000 was in the RX18 or in HBL's Hog scoop.
 
I don't own any large chamber mini-scoops for myself, but from what I've been reading & hearing when I borrow some, Rog was right to ask the other day why are some of us concentrating on the v18-1200's to sound the best in large chambered cabs.
 
Maybe a medium chamber is what it needs, enforcing why it sounds better in the mini over the full scoop. Taking it the chamber in the mini is smaller than the full scoop.
 
Levyte is well overdue to get this cab of yours built by someone.
 
Hope this all makes sense.
 
 
Tek, it depends on the type of cabinet.
 
With reflex and at the wavelengths invloved the same applies to mini scoops, the driver unloads below the tuning frequency of the port (Fb). This happens because the output of the port is in phase at its tuning point but below the tuning point just passes air from the rear of the woofer. The rear of the woofers output is 180 degrees out of phase from the front and because the ports output is in phase with the woofers rear output below Fb, the ports output will also be 180 degrees out below Fb. So below FB both front and rear waves can meet. This is like having the woofer in free air, well not quite as the port still adds resistance, but the effect will make the driver seems like its out of a box. Drivers like the V18-1200 have a symetrical suspension and because of its higher Vas needs more input from its suspension to keep things in control. Higher motor strength woofers rely on there motor strength to keep in control, which is great for most of the time but not good when it comes to unloading situations, which can be a lot of the time when playing muisc that has a lot of lows though cabs that are not tuned low enough.
 
A horn will unload the driver when its transmision length can no longer suport a frequency which is one quater its wavelength. So when the frequency being played has a longer wavelength that the horn can suport it disapears and acts like a long port of tube which has no resistance. Longer horns will load to lower frequencies as will larger drivers on the same length horn as smaller drivers. But unlike the reflex box that will allow both front and rear radiation to meet below Fb, a woofer in a horn will still recieve damping from its sealed rear chamber. This in itself can give problems as large woofers in small sealed chambers can undergo very large excusion below Fc. But the problem of unloading is normally worse in reflex designs or horns that act like reflex because of the low frequencies involved.
 
The best thing you can do if you play music with lots of low frequencies is to use reflex cabs tuned to about 25Hz. That way the drivers will never unload and you will keep them for a very long time, well if you don't cook the coils first. You could use horns with a cutoff of 25Hz, but they tend to be house like size and not moveable. Unless its a Rubic horn.......
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jethrocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 March 2008 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by Rog Mogale Rog Mogale wrote:

The best thing you can do if you play music with lots of low frequencies is to use reflex cabs tuned to about 25Hz. That way the drivers will never unload and you will keep them for a very long time, well if you don't cook the coils first. You could use horns with a cutoff of 25Hz, but they tend to be house like size and not moveable. Unless its a Rubic horn.......
 


What about big ass bandpass?
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Tekasis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tekasis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2008 at 8:56pm
Originally posted by Rog Mogale Rog Mogale wrote:

The best thing you can do if you play music with lots of low frequencies is to use reflex cabs tuned to about 25Hz.
That way the drivers will never unload and you will keep them for a very long time, well if you don't cook the coils first.
 
Thanks for the explanation Rog. With info like that, is only one of the reasons why you shouldn't consider leaving this forum.
 
What's a G-Sub tuned to ?
 
How does the narrow chamber scoops like the RX18/Super Scoop control this then ?
  
Originally posted by jethrocker jethrocker wrote:

What about big ass bandpass?
 
Good question! But I'm sure I read on here that although bandpass cabs can sound so heavy, they don't throw (spl) very far like a reflex cab.
 


Edited by Tekasis - 01 April 2008 at 8:57pm
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JaKe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JaKe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2008 at 11:00pm
Another solution is to use a high pass filter to cut any signal below the tuning frequency where the cone is no longer loaded by the horn or port.

JaKe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 April 2008 at 11:32pm
i think the g sub is tuned to about 37hz  ive got it saved in win isd, i think its right allthough i dont actually remeber modeling it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 April 2008 at 3:44am
G Sub is tuned to 38.1 Hz for the stock drivers.
 
Jake, I take it you have never tried explaining to a roots system that they must use a HPF then.
 
"How does the narrow chamber scoops like the RX18/Super Scoop control this then ?"
 
They don't and can't. A  2.1 meter horn like the super scoop has a horn cutoff of 41Hz, play anything below that and the horn is not in contol. Hence you see scoops with the drivers jumping around all over the place like they are about to pop out. The driver must have a good suspension system to help out when that happens. 
 
Bandpass is like reflex as in it losses control below tuning when the port passes the rear of the drivers 180 degree out of phase signal though the port. You then get both front and back waves meeting and cancelling. You can keep the driver loaded by tuning the rear chamber very low like 25Hz, the problem is that there is not enough space to do this. Because bandpass uses multiple chambers each chamber size has to be smaller than for the same size reflex enclosure size. Its easy to get a 400 litre box with reflex, but it's going to be a massive bandpass cabinet that has a 400 litre rear chamber. The front chamber slightly offsets the need for such a large chamber compared with reflex, but really low tuned bandpass cabs are going to have to be very big like JBL TCB and present other problems and stresses to the woofers. 
 


Edited by Rog Mogale - 02 April 2008 at 3:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Insanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2008 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Rog Mogale Rog Mogale wrote:

..............is like reflex as in it losses control below tuning when the port passes the rear of the drivers 180 degree out of phase signal though the port. You then get both front and back waves meeting and cancelling. ............
 
 
I have 4x  single 18", 190litre reflex cabs (PD186 loaded). I got them tuned to 36hz, what HPF would you recommend to stop this issue? I have it set at 38hz at the minute, is this too low?
I'm giving each driver around 900w, clean & unclipped . These are used for sub (time alligned) under USB's.
 
Gonna post this in the newbie section aswell, seems appropriate!
 
 


Edited by Tony Insanity - 10 April 2008 at 9:46am
.....you might also look for her companion, a large Chinese rabbit, who is easy to spot since he is only standing on his hind feet in the shade of a cinnamon tree...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jake_Fielder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2008 at 10:08am
if its tuned ti 36Hz then you want to go slightly below that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JaKe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2008 at 10:31am
Originally posted by Rog Mogale Rog Mogale wrote:

G Sub is tuned to 38.1 Hz for the stock drivers.
 
Jake, I take it you have never tried explaining to a roots system that they must use a HPF then.
 
"How does the narrow chamber scoops like the RX18/Super Scoop control this then ?"
 
 


I take it you have but but because it's a roots system the laws of physics don't apply?

JaKe

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tony Insanity Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2008 at 7:26pm
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Edited by Tony Insanity - 10 April 2008 at 7:40pm
.....you might also look for her companion, a large Chinese rabbit, who is easy to spot since he is only standing on his hind feet in the shade of a cinnamon tree...
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