Speakerplans.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > General Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - 4/3/2
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

4/3/2
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
concept-10 View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc


Joined: 17 May 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 1293 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 February 2018 at 8:09pm


"Aman" to that. LOL
[/QUOTE]

Priceless
Back to Top
MattStolton View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 04 September 2010
Location: Walthamstow
Status: Offline
Points: 4234 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 10:47am
Something else that bloke called "Rog" mentioned is "Do not confuse any other frequency with kick, it is 91Hz"

So, back to the idea of "Frequency Headroom", if your box/driver combo is optimal for 30-80, say a typical 18" horn, it is out of band for 91Hz. Lots of sub rumble, but without chest smack?

However, some other box/driver that was designed to do 60-120 will have 91Hz slap bang middle of pass band, and may well kick like a mule. HD15 for example?

18/21" BR do rumble. 18", in some horns, either do rumble or can be tuned up for kick. 15" will tend to do kick, but can be boxed up to do some rumble too. Speed of piston movement Vs reduction in output as less surface area, you decide on balance of compromise.

For BR, whilst they can do a wider bandwidth, so 30-150 is easily done, they do so less efficiently, so you need more of them to achieve the same horn output.

WARNING: MASSIVE OVER SIMPLIFICATION AND GENERALISATION COMING:

So, single 18" horn box doing sub, 15" horn kick box, versus 2x18" BR would be similar. Apart from the horns would be more efficient for same power delivered from amp, and so "louder" for same mixer output.

The change comes when you scale it up. Because horns couple, generally for the good, as you add more, the frequency headroom of the group of horns, due to effective collective increase in mouth area, increases massively. Sounds Better. And because you have all those extra amplifiers, twice as many versus the BR version, and inherent Horn efficiency, you create a lot more air waves.

I'm not saying a huge pile of 2x18 BR would not achieve the same, just saying to achieve same directionality/throw and SPL, you would need twice as many, assuming +6dB horn advantage to SPL.

From a Tour Hire inventory POV, huge piles of 2x18 Br fit well, as much as for the current trend of cardioid stacks. Back to our friend the DSP box, and then huge piles of them, with reversals and second Out Of Phase stacks and all that. Lovely, as you have to supply lots of them, which the promoter is paying for....And it looks cool.

2x18" BR, heck even an appropriately tuned big box 2x15" will shift air, and with right driver/box combo may do 30-150Hz, may even kick! However 1x18 horn, of a narrow pass band, with a 1x18/15 "kick bin" above will kick more, just it is more cables, more amps, more DSP, and more ways to cock up the settings.

If it sounds good to you, and your punters, and your person handing you the cheque, job done. You choose which compromises you can live with, and sound is always in the ear of the beholder!
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
Back to Top
Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 02 April 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5175 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2018 at 11:26am
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

Something else that bloke called "Rog" mentioned is "Do not confuse any other frequency with kick, it is 91Hz"

18/21" BR do rumble. 18", in some horns, either do rumble or can be tuned up for kick. 15" will tend to do kick, but can be boxed up to do some rumble too. Speed of piston movement Vs reduction in output as less surface area, you decide on balance of compromise.holder!


Until people start learning how Thiele Small Parameters dictates the overall performance of the loudspeaker in which, you use the appropriate size enclosure to amplify the loudspeaker's overall performance, you are going to find many trying to breakdown bass frequencies in multiple sections.

 

Things are getting bad to worse as many won’t even take the time to learn despite, TS Parameters are readily available from the manufactures website and Loudspeaker Simulation Software is free.

 

Best Regards,

Elliot Thompson
Back to Top
njw View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 26 March 2010
Location: S. Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 2574 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote njw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 February 2018 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Stick with 15 inch drivers. Take it from a person that owns 15, 18 in addition to 21 inch drivers.

 

A 15 inch driver can play midrange (JBL 2220), low midrange and bass (JBL 2226).

That is exactly what you need when you are looking to reproduce music where the heart of the low frequency emphasis that the majority loves falls within the low midrange to bass region.

 

The 15 inch driver were overlooked when many became mesmerised by 18 inch drivers. The 15 inch driver also became down played when many could not tame the strong low midrange presence they offered and chose 12 inch drivers.   

 

You need to decide where you want to go. If your events are in small pubs toting, 18 or 21 inch drivers is going to be a waste of time when you can get the same results using 15 inch drivers. If your events are in venues where the ambiance plays a factor and having large boxes are looked in their eyes as concert speakers, you will lose clients very quickly.

 

My small system consists of 8 Double Fifteens and, 4 full range cabinets (Double 12 Single 10 and Compression Driver). It is a basic three-way setup that is capable of delivering 25 Hz – 16 kHz (That is not -10 dB or -3dB). When I use my larger system, the Double Fifteens are used on my topology of what low midrange – bass should be.

 

From 1997 to date, I have not had a situation where 15 inch drivers used in my small system could not deliver frequencies ranging from 25 Hz – 110 Hz.


Best Regards,
  
 
 Someone said to me years ago that a 15 can do nearly everything an 18 can do but an 18 can't do nearly everything a 15 can do. If that makes sense? LOL
Back to Top
Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 02 April 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5175 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 February 2018 at 8:37am
Originally posted by njw njw wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Stick with 15 inch drivers. Take it from a person that owns 15, 18 in addition to 21 inch drivers.

 

A 15 inch driver can play midrange (JBL 2220), low midrange and bass (JBL 2226).

That is exactly what you need when you are looking to reproduce music where the heart of the low frequency emphasis that the majority loves falls within the low midrange to bass region.

 

The 15 inch driver were overlooked when many became mesmerised by 18 inch drivers. The 15 inch driver also became down played when many could not tame the strong low midrange presence they offered and chose 12 inch drivers.   

 

You need to decide where you want to go. If your events are in small pubs toting, 18 or 21 inch drivers is going to be a waste of time when you can get the same results using 15 inch drivers. If your events are in venues where the ambiance plays a factor and having large boxes are looked in their eyes as concert speakers, you will lose clients very quickly.

 

My small system consists of 8 Double Fifteens and, 4 full range cabinets (Double 12 Single 10 and Compression Driver). It is a basic three-way setup that is capable of delivering 25 Hz – 16 kHz (That is not -10 dB or -3dB). When I use my larger system, the Double Fifteens are used on my topology of what low midrange – bass should be.

 

From 1997 to date, I have not had a situation where 15 inch drivers used in my small system could not deliver frequencies ranging from 25 Hz – 110 Hz.


Best Regards,
  
 
 Someone said to me years ago that a 15 can do nearly everything an 18 can do but an 18 can't do nearly everything a 15 can do. If that makes sense? LOL

Absolutely!

There are a lot of 18 inch drivers offered today (21 inch drivers as well) that are designed to mimic the characteristics of a 15 inch driver. Particularly when they are required to offer a lot of SPL from 60 Hz on up. This can be a good or bad thing based upon what is the actual requirements needed to get the job done. 

There are some home audio enthusiast that are obsessed with the sound characteristics of Danley's Tapped Horn to the point, they try their best to copy the design. The Tapped Horn was introduced using 15 inch drivers. Their 18 inch version came after the success of the 15 inch version. 

Best Regards,

 








Edited by Elliot Thompson - 28 February 2018 at 8:38am
Elliot Thompson
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.176 seconds.