Impedance matching "patch" ? |
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Radius
Registered User Joined: 30 January 2019 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 102 |
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Posted: 16 October 2019 at 1:15pm |
Hi, this one may seem a little left of centre, but I do like to try and apply what I have learnt elsewhere... hope this is not a simple impedance question :)
In radio you can match the impedance using different lengths of 50/75 ohm cable to make a "balun" allowing a perfect match and avoiding a standing wave.... In PA terms, you can measure Impedance of wires and speakers, but can you "Correct" the impedance by adding a wire /resistor to the circuit :eg: I want to bridge my amp at 4ohm , but when I check my cabs and the cables I have got, I have 3 ohms..which is not what I want... can I fix this with a simple wiring patch ? Would I just make a series and parallel patch box to make the Ohms nearer to 8 , thus keeping in the safe operating parameters of the amp ? Are the other ways I should consider ? ( its all theoretical at present...but better to plan than shell out and find you have the wrong set up ) many thanks in advance as always ! |
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AKA the typo king...bear with me, my hands are big and the keyboard small....
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Earplug
Old Croc Joined: 03 January 2012 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 7216 |
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You are confusing 'Resistance'and 'Impedance'. Did you meassure the speakers with a simple multimeter - or something more complex? If just a multimeter, then what you measured is just a 'nominal' value for guidance only. Most 8 ohm speakers will give you 6/7 ohms when measured with a (DC) multimeter. Then, the impedance of your speakers will change with frequency, etc. If you want 8 ohms, just add another (nominal) 4 ohm speaker in series. Edited by Earplug - 16 October 2019 at 1:41pm |
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Earplugs Are For Wimps!
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Radius
Registered User Joined: 30 January 2019 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 102 |
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Hey, thanks for the response-
Maybe I have phrased eth question poorly. the answer to your query is nope- I would buy an Ohm Meter , and I know Impedance is for AC and resistance for DC :) . the terms do get interchanged , but remember I am trying to apply some theory to see if there is similar theory to matching theory in RF I also get the basic series -parallel usages to keep/ change resistance, matching , but wondered if there were any other ways used to adjust say when we wanted to use 4ohms, but ensure we don't drop too far below this figure for too long. for example you have 2 8 ohm cabs- on the same bridged output, getting 4ohms, but with the cables you get 3 ohms- can you use a breakout box of some type to correct the 1ohm variance, or would you have to use w series & parallel wiring and go with 8ohm ? IE: Is that the only method ? |
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AKA the typo king...bear with me, my hands are big and the keyboard small....
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Earplug
Old Croc Joined: 03 January 2012 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 7216 |
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Ok, understood. The 1 ohm variance you speak about is pretty much insignificant - especially when compared to what the speaker will present to the amp over a band of frequencies. And some modern amps DO track the load impedance and compensate by limiting current draw, etc. Some more info:- |
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Earplugs Are For Wimps!
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toastyghost
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10919 |
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You need a HELL of a lot of cable to make a 1 ohm change in a speaker system, especially if you’re using a sensible thickness of copper for the cores. I’m talking over 100m of 4mm2.
Speakers are not a fixed impedance device. They have an impedance curve that always varies with frequency, often by large amounts. A multimeter will not show this, you need to plot the impedance curve to see a true value in the pass band of choice. You can do that with REW - read the manual. |
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Radius
Registered User Joined: 30 January 2019 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 102 |
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Thanks Both - much clearer, I am probably over thinking things, but I'm eager to learn , and appreciate you guys taking the time !
I now understand its a varying impedance curve applies to a varying voltage, so hard to do anything than broad brush strokes.... I'll definitely take a look at REW software, as I am sure that will help. |
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AKA the typo king...bear with me, my hands are big and the keyboard small....
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djgorey
Young Croc Joined: 29 December 2007 Location: S. Wales Status: Offline Points: 1306 |
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I get what you’re trying to do, but don’t understand why. If your cabs are 4R nominal each, why are you trying to make them 8R. What’s the set up you’re looking to achieve?
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Danielr
Registered User Joined: 30 May 2016 Status: Offline Points: 209 |
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When people are talking about 50ohm and 75 ohm cable, and the use of a ballum to impedance match source and drain, they are looking at output impedance of antenna, incredibly small signals where it is easy to load the source and add noise to the signal...
I don't really think it is applicable when talking about the transmission of a signal tens/hundreds/thousands of watts over a relatively short distance.
Edited by Danielr - 16 October 2019 at 11:32pm |
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Chris Grimshaw
Registered User Joined: 10 September 2018 Location: Sheffield Status: Offline Points: 281 |
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Correct. The cables with impedances also happen at very high frequencies, well outside of the audio band. Chris
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studio45
Old Croc Joined: 16 October 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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The clue is in the name "radio frequencies" - above 100kHz or so, significant amounts of energy can radiate from a conductor into EM waves. Think of this as another "circuit" for the energy in the conductor to reach ground. In a coaxial cable, with a defined diameter, distance between the core and screen and given dielectric material between them, the impedance of this path to ground is 50/75 ohms, nominally. As you go down in frequency the figure is larger, as you go up it is smaller. Hence why it is difficult to send GHz frequencies down coaxial cables without incurring large losses. The energy just dribbles out of the wire, as it were.
At audio frequencies this effect is very, very minimal. So your thick, twisted-pair speaker cables have a very, very high characteristic impedance to the audio signal from the low-impedance source of the power amp. There is no path to ground except through the load at the end of the cable. So the concept of a balun doesn't really exist in the same way as it does when working with RF. You *can* use a transformer....but this is usually to match a low-impedance speaker to a high-impedance 100v line amplifier output (which will actually normally have its own transformer inside....) rather than transform a 4 ohm speaker array into an 8 ohm load. The size and cost of the thing would be more than just buying another amplifier and more cabling.
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Studio45 - Repairs & Building Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA
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Radius
Registered User Joined: 30 January 2019 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 102 |
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Cheers for all the feedback, I will say it doesn't feel like low voltage when some armpit has cut your cable, but due swr protection circuit you still get a jolt at 40 m... When the fun stops 😂
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AKA the typo king...bear with me, my hands are big and the keyboard small....
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