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Calculate gain reduction on amplifier

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Lillike_natnek View Drop Down
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    Posted: 27 May 2021 at 2:51pm
Hi guys,

We've got a Soundgear Jupiter 10 (4x1350W @ 8R, 4x 2300W @ 4R) which we want to use to power 2x Soundgear Orbit 4 with NEO drivers (600W AES + 100W AES, both 8R) which we want to run in stereo. Amp may be a bit overpowered but we wanted it to be future proof for when we're gonna double the stack. 

Setup for each of the 4 channels of the amp:
Channel 1:  Left, 600W (12" low-mid)
Channel 2: Right, 600W (12" low-mid)
Channel 3: Left, 100W (8"+ 1")
Channel 4: Right, 100W (8" + 1")

Using the following formula; db = 10log(input power / output power) I can conclude the following;

To power 1 of the 12" drivers -5.84dB for the signal that goes from the DSP to the amplifier for that particular channel. When the amp is on max that would mean the 12" driver would get roughly 600W. 10log(600/2300)

For the 8" + 1" section I'd say that the signal that goes from the DSP to the amplifier would need to be set at -13.62dB. 10log(100/2300)


Is this correct? Before setting and testing this I'd like a 2nd opinion on this matter Smile

Thanks for your time!


Edited by Lillike_natnek - 27 May 2021 at 2:53pm
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Peter Jan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Jan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2021 at 5:23pm
With 8 Ohm nominal loudspeaker impedances connected to an amplifier channel, you have to start your calculations from the 8 Ohm rating of the amplifier ( 1350W/8 Ohm ).
Your DSP settings are in dB, but that is relevant to voltage, not power.
When calculating dB figures with power, you have to use 20 as a factor, not 10 ( 10 is used for calculating dB on voltage level, like mixing desk, DSP, everything that works on "LINE" levels ).
Other than that ... calculating what your loudspeakers can handle and setting of your DSP accordingly is one thing, but it still doesn't account for the difference in sensitivity of those different loudspeakers,
so some extra level adjustments might be needed on top of those calculated settings.
And another thing ... there is an wide range of sorts of limiters used in various DSP brands.
The good/better ones tend to use some form of RMS limiting, that keeps dynamics somewhat normal and sounds kinda normal when driven into limiting. Average power over time stays within reason and that is what the AES rating of a speaker is about.
The cheap ones usually work with "Brickwall" limiters, which do protect effectively, but do that only from a certain point, killing about every bit of dynamics in the process ( the name "Brickwall" was not chosen randomly ;-) ) and won't sound nice when driven into limiting. You need to set those kind of limiters a good deal lower to let speakers survive in the long run.


Edited by Peter Jan - 27 May 2021 at 6:15pm
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Lillike_natnek View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lillike_natnek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 May 2021 at 7:44pm
Hey thanks for the reply. Oh yeah made a little fuckup already there, should be 8 Ohm off course. Damn I guess this is going to be more complicated than I initially thought.

Well to give you an idea of our full setup;

Speakers:
Tops: 2x Soundgear Orbit 4 with Neo drivers
Kicks: 2x ES18BPH with PD186/2
Subs: 2x Hog scoop with PD1851/2

Amplifiers:
Soundgear Jupiter 10 for the tops
MC2 E45 for the kicks
Crown MA5000VZ for the hogs

DSP:
XTA DP426

Quite some overkill but we had very good deals and we wanted it to be future proof as we plan on doubling the stack eventually. All the gear is at my buddy's house so I can't really mess around with the software and the dsp here yet, I'm just trying to do some homework as we have have found a nice testing location.
Could you maybe point me towards some helpful reads? I'm a bit overwhelmed by google results and some things I read seem to contradict each other.

Also, you say factor 20 for power, 10 for DSP - does that mean when makign calculations we should use different factors for the DSP and Amps?



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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2021 at 7:59am
Originally posted by Lillike_natnek Lillike_natnek wrote:

Quite some overkill but we had very good deals and we wanted it to be future proof as we plan on doubling the stack eventually.





There is nothing wrong having amplifier power beyond the loudspeaker's maximum rating to feed your loudspeakers. The reason it is not implemented a lot, is due to the majority not having the funds to follow such a scheme. Do not let anyone steer you away from such a concept for, the amount envy and jealously in this industry, will give one the impression, the money is coming out of someone else's pockets other than your own.


Best Regards,



Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2021 at 9:02am
I´d say that the most important is to use your ears! And avoid the amp going into clip.

The 12's would most prabably handle the full power of the amp without any problem - depending on the crest factor of the material you are playing.

The mid-tops will need limiting - but as noted above, it would depend on the type of limiting. Sending too much of a heavily compressed signal can actually be more damaging over time. As I say, use your ears. Also, the biggest sin is not having enough gear and thrashing what you have to cover the event.



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Lillike_natnek View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lillike_natnek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2021 at 12:01pm
Okay that's great to hear, I think the subs and kicks are also safe for too much power.
Yeah using the ears is probably the best advice, numbers are just.. numbers. Only thing I'm worried about is blowing up any precious parts during the testing phase.

The infograph of the tops say that the 8"+ 1" section should be 9dB lower than the 12" section with the assumption that the same amp is used, does this mean that if the 12" is safe for 1350W, the 8" + 1" is safe for ~170W?

Any type of limiting that's recommended?

Thanks for the input all :)


Edited by Lillike_natnek - 28 May 2021 at 12:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 May 2021 at 12:14pm



Watch these...

Or, contact James @ Soundgear since you bought his amps and cabinets?

But in principle, all you need is a multimeter, preferably one with a true RMS readout, and some basic grasp of Ohm's law if you're wanting to get it approximately right. This disregards the impedance curve vs frequency and the simple fact that a driver's free-air AES rating no longer really applies once it's loaded into a box, but it's better than guesswork.

V = I*R

Use this to figure out the RMS voltage needed to obtain the rated power of the cabinet's passband at the nominal impedance. Note those down.

Drive your DSP with broadband pink noise (or better yet, Meyer's free M-Noise signal) at a similar level to your normal drive volume. Use the mixing console or DJ mixer if you can, and set the output Vu meters to the typical level you run at.

Compress it 2:1 if you want to be really safe, as this will give you a 6 dB crest factor which represents the most extreme forms of music. Most music sits closer to 12 to 16 dB crest factor, though.

Apply your required filters to the DSP outputs; high pass, low pass, EQ, the lot. Connect your multimeter's probes to the output of the amplifier channel that will be driving the speakers and set it to measure voltage, RMS.
If you can, plug one of each of the speakers in and use the link-through port on the cabinet as this will better represent real-world usage. You might want earplugs...

Then turn the level of the outputs up, one at a time with the others muted, until the previously calculated voltage level is reached. That gives you the dBU value to use for an RMS limiter - at least, based on nominal impedance and AES ratings...

Since you have an XTA, set the limit threshold there, and leave the rest on auto mode. It'll take care of peak, attack and release based on your filter settings for that passband.

For setting levels for playback, then yes, use your ears or add in an analyser. Start with the same pink noise signal for the latter, then move to some tunes you know well. Preferably something with clean, well recorded natural sounds like vocals, stringed instruments, pianos. You can do fun stuff later, but getting it right with the things that everyone should be able to tell sound 'right' first helps a lot.

You might then want to crank the system to max, and adjust the output limiters so one passband doesn't carry on getting louder when the others are in hard limit... Or add an input limiter to maintain dynamics.
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