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New 12" tops - advice wanted.

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JonB67 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2022 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

I am currently busy with a compact 12" top using 12NDL88 and HF146+ME90. Passive crossover is in the works.

Care to share? How far have you got?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 March 2022 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by Lucasdude Lucasdude wrote:

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Im after some new passive 12"+hf bass reflex tops in the next month. 

What would you choose and why?

By tops, do you mean they will be used with something substantial underneath?

Nothing crazy by speakerplans standard, just 1 or two double 15s a side. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2022 at 7:56am
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

But everyone kept saying second hand pro gear was sensible money so i thought id ask. Dont even mind buying new if the cost / performance hits the right spot. 


Nostalgia thread aside, this ‘sensible money’ comment couldn’t be further from the truth right now. Lead times for everything are insanity, and the market is no longer flooded with companies going bust or flipping kit to put some food on the table.

As for DIY, unless you want a passion project you’ll still struggle to beat the cost of ready-made if you’re using good components, decent wood, and make a crossover (passive or active) that gives half a crap about consistency in the polar domain or linear response at high drive levels.

Plus if you do buy new, unless you see it sat on the shelf personally and know you’re walking out the door with it, then you can expect 3-6 months wait once you part with your money.

Plenty of ‘class D over-processed crap’ 🙄 piled up at the big boy music dealers, most of which are obscene bargains and basically bombproof.

You might strike some lucky bargains second hand, but they’re much more likely to be had scouring the various brokers for stuff that came as part of a package and hasn’t yet moved on. Try giving Kinx on the mainland a call. Nice guys who'll keep a lookout for you if there's nowt that takes your fancy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2022 at 10:13am
@JonB67

I currently have two cabinets assembled and one loaded for measurements. Hope to get a first attempt crossover in two weeks. I do not have a very good picture right now, but it somewhat looks like a Voice Acoustic Modular 12 (also regarding handles). It has a relative large ports and is tuned to 65Hz.
ME90 and HF146 give a flat response on itself but the end-goal is that it always will be used with Powersoft DSP amps to get the maximum out of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conanski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 March 2022 at 11:45pm
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Why passive? 

Because Im already set up for it.
That may not be a good enough excuse.

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Budget is basically whatever it has to be to get a more hi fi sound than what Im using. 
Well what are you using now? Details of the whole rig not just the speakers, we need to know where the starting point is.

How will system this be used, live bands, DJs, bit of both? 
is it your personal system or a rental for anybody to use?

If this is hire rig just get over it and buy some powered boxes.. the new RCF 9xx series looks killer. You can't beat the overall performance, convenience, and reliability these represent in this market. 

If this is a personal rig you may have more options. There are good arguments for staying passive but you won't find any glory with a generic 12+1 box, the major manufacturers have this market covered top to bottom and you will not improve on the SQ and overall performace offered by the top products available in this segment.
Used pro gear from days gone by can represent good value because these cabs included highend drivers, but you need the chops to complete any refurbishment necessary and then the gear to bi-amp and process them to extract all the potential. Simply connecting the boxes to even a really good power amp with a graphic EQ is just wasting your time and money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2022 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Why passive? 

Because I'm already set up for it.
 
That may not be a good enough excuse.

I get what you're saying, and if I was replacing the whole rig from scratch I might agree with you, but its more involved that that. The amp rack has the mixer built on top, amps, the controller for the DMX and WIFI for DMX all built in, a pole mount means it can also double as a speaker stand in some venues. 

It was designed to facilitate the fastest deployment and removal of the whole rig as there is time pressure getting in and out at one of the venues we use. (which also doesn't have power where the speakers are on one side, so I'd have to run power across if using powered speakers)

I'd have to start over entirely and redesign and build the whole system to get the facility I already have and I'm not really willing to do that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2022 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by Conanski Conanski wrote:


Well what are you using now? Details of the whole rig not just the speakers, we need to know where the starting point is.

How will system this be used, live bands, DJs, bit of both? 
is it your personal system or a rental for anybody to use?

If this is hire rig just get over it and buy some powered boxes.. the new RCF 9xx series looks killer. You can't beat the overall performance, convenience, and reliability these represent in this market. 

If this is a personal rig you may have more options. There are good arguments for staying passive but you won't find any glory with a generic 12+1 box, the major manufacturers have this market covered top to bottom and you will not improve on the SQ and overall performace offered by the top products available in this segment.
Used pro gear from days gone by can represent good value because these cabs included highend drivers, but you need the chops to complete any refurbishment necessary and then the gear to bi-amp and process them to extract all the potential. Simply connecting the boxes to even a really good power amp with a graphic EQ is just wasting your time and money.

Current standard rig - just for my use, not hired.

Mixer Yamaha mg12
DSP Behringer DCX
Top Amp Matrix 6004
Sub Amp CK26 from elements audio

Subs  2x Double 15s loaded with BMS 15n630
Tops Proel Next 12hp B&C DE12 and B&C 12hpl64 in the worlds ugliest plastic case.

Crossed at 125hz from memory.

My primary problem is I find the tops are great at the high frequencies but lacking lower down. I don't mean they wont drop low enough or do sub, that they're kinda muddy and weak in the mid to low vocals.

I haven't ever done any measurements or set them up properly. I've bought a mike and just about to buy an external soundcard so I can start down that road, but they have the same issue when used on their own, so its not just an integration issue with the subs. 

I don't expect to improve on what's available, just like my rig to sound better and thought starting with some better tops and setting them up better would do that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2022 at 2:42pm


Edited by JonB67 - 24 March 2022 at 2:43pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucasdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 March 2022 at 3:25pm
Looking at the specs of your current kit, I would say that it's more likely the existing 12s are just not powerful enough for either your top amp or to keep up with a pair of 1200w bins. If youre crossing over @125hz, and you're happy with the sound of the subs like that, I would be tempted to suggest a higher power more midrange type of box like a double 10+ horn. When crossed over in the way you are doing, the smaller driver sounds much clearer at high Spls, and 2 drivers would likely get you more like 600-800w power handling.
  I would think your Proels sound ok at lower power levels, but those types of plastic boxes radiate almost as much energy as the drivers when driven hard! If you don't mind experimenting a little, you could probably improve them a fair amount by heavily damping the inside using a load of Deflex sound deadening panels or expanding builders foam.
  This would of course lower the internal volume which would tune the cabinets much higher, but if you're crossing over @125hz it won't really matter.
  As others have mentioned, the portable sector is now dominated by lightweight powered boxes of which I'm not a fan. The install sector, especially "house of worship" products in the States are still generally birch ply high power models. The downside to this is that they rarely have handles or corner protection, but that shouldn't be a problem for a moderate size top box and a strong back!


Edited by Lucasdude - 24 March 2022 at 3:26pm
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