Has anyone here ever used only horns as tops? |
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Jo bg
Young Croc Joined: 08 March 2017 Status: Offline Points: 552 |
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hi
actually the guy in the video you posted as example is not using only horns for mids and highs, he has bullet tweeters for the highs too. Even if he was doing it, if you value what a random guy in china does in his living room on youtube more than the advice of many engineers and builders with known track record here, you should rethink how to find informations on the net. identify a reliable source before thinking what you read is good or true. notice that martinsson is NOT using a compression driver like you would, but a PAPER CONE FULLRANGE DRIVER behind the horn, a different animal. you never talk about drivers but it's not only about the horn, the horn must load the wanted frequency, but the driver must be able to reproduce it, and possibly in a nice way. that could be a diy solution for you on home level, not pa, a good full range in a horn or waveguide (fatal 3 inch?) and a subwoofer. if you go here https://forum.speakerplans.com/scans-of-jbl-4520-4530-measurement-plots_topic69067.html and look at 4520 response you should understand why is not a good idea to take it to 600 hz... unless you don't care about the area around 140 hz and from 280 to 400 hz. edit: sorry, little correction, the Tangband W2-803SE, is not paper cone, is a poly cone. still, not a compression driver
Edited by Jo bg - 23 November 2017 at 1:27pm |
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mikehende
Young Croc Joined: 18 July 2011 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 751 |
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Yes, i had mentioned that in my response to that video and it is my "guess" that he might be satisfied with his mids.
I am waiting on Martinsson to advise on the questions I had asked of him but great advice, thanks! I do realize that the driver is as important if not even more than the horn lens but first I am trying to decide on the horn lens as in my experience the size and design of the lens does make a big difference.
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martinsson
Registered User Joined: 19 June 2007 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 325 |
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In this case I used both THAM6 and THAM10, both suffered as their usable passband ends way before the 2386 horn starts to load, but it was what I had laying around at the time. Later I tried a couple of sealed boxes loaded with a pdn.2450, that worked a lot better, albeit a bit of a strange combo, but the sound was ok crossed over around 350Hz, again in a home environment., see below: (added Muppet for size comparison)
For "home level" use, crossed over 350Hz and with some compensation, yes, but this all depends on your perception of acceptable, to me was, to the extent that normal people would not complain, discerning audionerds might have a few things to say about it though. Today I have a pair of FatialPro HF206 on the 2386's, and if crossed over 500Hz on the same horns they outperform the tangband wide band drivers, and I do mean outperform, especially in the higher region. If I was going to attempt this again, I would look for a pair of large format horns like these: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/autotech-horns/minphase.html And combine them with a pair of these: https://celestion.com/product/174/axi2050/ Then go for a pair of decent hornsubs underneath.
In the case with the sealed boxes it worked ok, but again this i highly individual, for me it was interesting to test it, and the shear fun of it combined with a decent result (to me) made it well worth the while.
Edited by martinsson - 23 November 2017 at 4:41pm |
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Swedish Pro-fi diy-nerd - http://www.martinsson.cc/blog/
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mikehende
Young Croc Joined: 18 July 2011 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 751 |
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Yes, definitely it's up to each individual to determine what is acceptable or great for him. Thanks for the answers and info.
That Celestion driver's specs and description looks great [thanks!]. I have Selenium D220i drivers on my peavey horns, the original RX14 sounds much better but this celestion I will definitely look into but I am not finding them for sale anywhere online, what do they cost and where did you purchase please?
Edited by mikehende - 23 November 2017 at 5:21pm |
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studio45
Old Croc Joined: 16 October 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3864 |
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My home hifi is a pair of Celestion DCR100 drivers on large nameless radial horns with a little Dacron stuffed in them, over a pair of Kef B200 in sealed boxes. Crossover is just 1.8mH in series with the woofers and 1uF in series with the tweeters, for an acoustic crossover point of about 600Hz. The response shape from the horns is odd, but serendipitously the single small cap and stuffing levels it right out! It sounds great off a 5 watt chip amp, but I wouldn't want to turn it up past 90dB or so because the horns don't sound good. They get harsh, due to distortion levels rising. I think that's the main factor to consider when trying to play large compression horns down low - you need to avoid that distortion creeping in. Of course, the solution there is to spend big money on low distortion drivers and carefully designed horns.
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Studio45 - Repairs & Building Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA
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Zeno
Registered User Joined: 03 February 2015 Location: MUC Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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I use the combi JBL 2360 with BMS Coax as tops. Crossover is 400Hz/12dB.
Under the table are 4 x 15" BR. Zeno |
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mikehende
Young Croc Joined: 18 July 2011 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 751 |
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Wow, what a driver that BMS. So you get enough mids and highs off of those horns alone? Also, what equipment do you run those with please?
Edited by mikehende - 23 November 2017 at 11:29pm |
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Aman Gebru
Registered User Joined: 01 February 2014 Location: Delhi Status: Offline Points: 350 |
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Gotta hand it to you mike, you got 6 pages in 2 days with wanting to do it the way we did it 30 years ago.
I thought it was about progression and finding something new, but it seems retro is the way. Just don't be disappointed when your audience doesn't like it as much as we do on here. |
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Mikkel
Young Croc Joined: 17 May 2013 Location: Huddersfield Status: Offline Points: 549 |
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Very true, the array of full range drivers is certainly an option in certain situations and 12v is obviously a battle for efficiency. For what the op is talking though about it would make sense to introduce anothrr band, as power supply isnt an issue and he seems to be wanting horns only. I do see the merits of what op is trying to achieve, bringing a bigger bandwidth into the horn lends to a more coherent system. But unless your prepared to spend big bucks on bms coax and large flares, it seems using cone driver is the only option. This is just my musings but instead of using a coax comp, which is essentially two drivers anyway, using double 8/10" horn meeting subs around 160/180 and good 1" at say 2k, you are still extracting widest bandwidth possible with fewest bands, but bringing less distortion into the system and probably costing significantly fewer pennies. Unless ive completely missed the point of what op was wanting. EDIT:) just re read and have seen that indeed the intention was large format horns so what i said isnt that relevant. Yes southwestcnc's horn is certainly a good option and the bms coax its designed around is certainly one of the cheaper ones. Other than that finding a pair of big jbl bi-radials or somesuch might be a long wait, have seen a few pop up over the years but not really been looking myself though. Each to their own as said. I personall would prefer to bring x/o of subs down as a trade off for using the 'usual' cones and cd format. Edited by Mikkel - 24 November 2017 at 4:30am |
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toastyghost
The 10,000 Points Club Joined: 09 January 2007 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 10919 |
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JBL bi radials are an awful choice for a broad range because even in their original intended passband they suffer horrendously from pattern flip.
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mikehende
Young Croc Joined: 18 July 2011 Location: NYC Status: Offline Points: 751 |
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I agree. As mentioned the Tractrix seems to be the best option for me but I have learned a heck of a lot from this thread so i wish to thank you guys for your inputs/advice and info!
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Earplug
Old Croc Joined: 03 January 2012 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 7216 |
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Although I generally agree with some of your points expressed in this thread, there really isn´t anything wrong with a lot of the way things were done 30 years ago. Take vinyl for example. There are a lot of (technically) better media around, but vinyl is still there. As are old PPX amps. Then we have the 'big' new innovation of the century, ie line arrays. Please don´t tell me that most of those actually sound any good. And audio is a lot more than just PA. A lot of home audio can be quite weird - and sound great. I love this one: |
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Earplugs Are For Wimps!
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