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Has anyone here ever used only horns as tops?

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Jo bg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2017 at 1:23pm
hi
actually the guy in the video you posted as example is not using only horns for mids and highs, he has bullet tweeters for the highs too.
Even if he was doing it, if you value what a random guy in china does in his living room on youtube more than the advice of many engineers and builders with known track record here, you should rethink how to find informations on the net. identify a reliable source before thinking what you read is good or true.

notice that martinsson is NOT using a compression driver like you would, but a PAPER CONE FULLRANGE DRIVER behind the horn, a different animal. you never talk about drivers but it's not only about the horn, the horn must load the wanted frequency, but the driver must be able to reproduce it, and possibly in a nice way.

that could be a diy solution for you on home level, not pa, a good full range in a horn or waveguide (fatal 3 inch?) and a subwoofer.

if you go here https://forum.speakerplans.com/scans-of-jbl-4520-4530-measurement-plots_topic69067.html and look at 4520 response you should understand why is not a good idea to take it to 600 hz... unless you don't care about the area around 140 hz and from 280 to 400 hz.

edit: sorry, little correction, the Tangband W2-803SE, is not paper cone, is a poly cone. still, not a compression driver


Edited by Jo bg - 23 November 2017 at 1:27pm
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mikehende View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikehende Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2017 at 1:39pm
Originally posted by Jo bg Jo bg wrote:

hi, actually the guy in the video you posted as example is not using only horns for mids and highs, he has bullet tweeters for the highs too.

Yes, i had mentioned that in my response to that video and it is my "guess" that he might be satisfied with his mids.

Originally posted by Jo bg Jo bg wrote:

Notice that martinsson is NOT using a compression driver like you would, but a PAPER CONE FULLRANGE DRIVER behind the horn, a different animal. you never talk about drivers but it's not only about the horn, the horn must load the wanted frequency, but the driver must be able to reproduce it, and possibly in a nice way.

that could be a diy solution for you on home level, not pa, a good full range in a horn or waveguide (fatal 3 inch?) and a subwoofer.

if you go here https://forum.speakerplans.com/scans-of-jbl-4520-4530-measurement-plots_topic69067.html and look at 4520 response you should understand why is not a good idea to take it to 600 hz... unless you don't care about the area around 140 hz and from 280 to 400 hz.

I am waiting on Martinsson to advise on the questions I had asked of him but great advice, thanks!

I do realize that the driver is as important if not even more than the horn lens but first I am trying to decide on the horn lens as in my experience the size and design of the lens does make a big difference. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martinsson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2017 at 4:40pm
Quote 1] Were you using only those horns with a sub with no low mid or mid woofers in between?

In this case I used both THAM6 and THAM10, both suffered as their usable passband ends way before the 2386 horn starts to load, but it was what I had laying around at the time.

Later I tried a couple of sealed boxes loaded with a pdn.2450, that worked a lot better, albeit a bit of a strange combo, but the sound was ok crossed over around 350Hz, again in a home environment., see below:


(added Muppet for size comparison)

Quote 2] If yes to the above, would you say that the horns alone had produced "acceptable" mids and highs?

For "home level" use, crossed over 350Hz and with some compensation, yes, but this all depends on your perception of acceptable, to me was, to the extent that normal people would not complain, discerning audionerds might have a few things to say about it though.

Today I have a pair of FatialPro HF206 on the 2386's, and if crossed over 500Hz on the same horns they outperform the tangband wide band drivers, and I do mean outperform, especially in the higher region.

If I was going to attempt this again, I would look for a pair of large format horns like these:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/autotech-horns/minphase.html

And combine them with a pair of these:
https://celestion.com/product/174/axi2050/

Then go for a pair of decent hornsubs underneath.

Quote 3] Would you say the combination of the horns and subs gave you an acceptable overall sound?

In the case with the sealed boxes it worked ok, but again this i highly individual, for me it was interesting to test it, and the shear fun of it combined with a decent result (to me) made it well worth the while.


Edited by martinsson - 23 November 2017 at 4:41pm
Swedish Pro-fi diy-nerd - http://www.martinsson.cc/blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikehende Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2017 at 5:18pm
Yes, definitely it's up to each individual to determine what is acceptable or great for him. Thanks for the answers and info.

That Celestion driver's specs and description looks great [thanks!]. I have Selenium D220i drivers on my peavey horns, the original RX14 sounds much better but this celestion I will definitely look into but I am not finding them for sale anywhere online, what do they cost and where did you purchase please?


Edited by mikehende - 23 November 2017 at 5:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote studio45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2017 at 6:08pm
My home hifi is a pair of Celestion DCR100 drivers on large nameless radial horns with a little Dacron stuffed in them, over a pair of Kef B200 in sealed boxes. Crossover is just 1.8mH in series with the woofers and 1uF in series with the tweeters, for an acoustic crossover point of about 600Hz. 
The response shape from the horns is odd, but serendipitously the single small cap and stuffing levels it right out! It sounds great off a 5 watt chip amp, but I wouldn't want to turn it up past 90dB or so because the horns don't sound good. They get harsh, due to distortion levels rising.
I think that's the main factor to consider when trying to play large compression horns down low - you need to avoid that distortion creeping in. Of course, the solution there is to spend big money on low distortion drivers and carefully designed horns.
Studio45 - Repairs & Building Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zeno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2017 at 11:22pm
I use the combi JBL 2360 with BMS Coax as tops. Crossover is 400Hz/12dB.
Under the table are 4 x 15" BR.




Zeno

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikehende Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 November 2017 at 11:29pm
Wow, what a driver that BMS. So you get enough mids and highs off of those horns alone? Also, what equipment do you run those with please?

Edited by mikehende - 23 November 2017 at 11:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aman Gebru Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2017 at 3:11am
Gotta hand it to you mike, you got 6 pages in 2 days with wanting to do it the way we did it 30 years ago.

I thought it was about progression and finding something new, but it seems retro is the way.

Just don't be disappointed when your audience doesn't like it as much as we do on here.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mikkel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2017 at 4:07am
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

Quote these days it always makes sense to add another set off boxes rather than squeezing the widest bandwidth possible out of your cab
Not always. 

12v systems are one clear exception, but there's a lot to be said for large column arrays of full range drivers playing over reflex subs. Cross around 150-200Hz.

The quality of high efficiency, low cost, small format, smooth response wideband drivers has improved a lot in recent years and still has some ways to go. 32x 89dB full range is close on 104dB efficient and actually costs less than a 2x12+CD arrangement.

It takes a little creativity to effectively design and impliment, but it opens up many interesting options for modularity and portability (a daisy chained background music system running the perimeter of a restaurant could be converted into a concert system when required, ie) so it's not something to be ruled out.


Very true, the array of full range drivers is certainly an option in certain situations and 12v is obviously a battle for efficiency. For what the op is talking though about it would make sense to introduce anothrr band, as power supply isnt an issue and he seems to be wanting horns only.

I do see the merits of what op is trying to achieve, bringing a bigger bandwidth into the horn lends to a more coherent system. But unless your prepared to spend big bucks on bms coax and large flares, it seems using cone driver is the only option.

This is just my musings but instead of using a coax comp, which is essentially two drivers anyway, using double 8/10" horn meeting subs around 160/180 and good 1" at say 2k, you are still extracting widest bandwidth possible with fewest bands, but bringing less distortion into the system and probably costing significantly fewer pennies.

Unless ive completely missed the point of what op was wanting. Embarrassed
EDIT:) just re read and have seen that indeed the intention was large format horns so what i said isnt that relevant. Yes southwestcnc's horn is certainly a good option and the bms coax its designed around is certainly one of the cheaper ones.

Other than that finding a pair of big jbl bi-radials or somesuch might be a long wait, have seen a few pop up over the years but not really been looking myself though.

Each to their own as said. I personall would prefer to bring x/o of subs down as a trade off for using the 'usual' cones and cd format.


Edited by Mikkel - 24 November 2017 at 4:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2017 at 8:20am
JBL bi radials are an awful choice for a broad range because even in their original intended passband they suffer horrendously from pattern flip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikehende Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2017 at 12:48pm
I agree. As mentioned the Tractrix seems to be the best option for me but I have learned a heck of a lot from this thread so i wish to thank you guys for your inputs/advice and info!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 November 2017 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Aman Gebru Aman Gebru wrote:

Gotta hand it to you mike, you got 6 pages in 2 days with wanting to do it the way we did it 30 years ago.

I thought it was about progression and finding something new, but it seems retro is the way.

Just don't be disappointed when your audience doesn't like it as much as we do on here.

 


Although I generally agree with some of your points expressed in this thread, there really isn´t anything wrong with a lot of the way things were done 30 years ago. Take vinyl for example. There are a lot of (technically) better media around, but vinyl is still there. As are old PPX amps.   Smile

Then we have the 'big' new innovation of the century, ie line arrays. Please don´t tell me that most of those actually sound any good.   Dead


And audio is a lot more than just PA. A lot of home audio can be quite weird - and sound great.

I love this one:




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Earplugs Are For Wimps!
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