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HD 15 vs TMS-3 (and others...) folded horn

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ultramars10 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 May 2016 at 1:39pm

Hello people,

So, i've had Funktion one R2SH since 2010, as well as C-subs since 2004, and i've used different models of 15" in beetween, like bass reflex, HD 15 borrowed from friends, copies of sound project SP4-Diamond ( a dutch brand), original folded horn of the full res2 speakers... even turbosound TMS-3 used as kick bins only LOL

I noticed that i didn't like the sound of the HD 15 in the top end, that they indeed shouldn't be used above 180hz, otherwise they sounded a bit muddy, undefined.... I compared the HD15 once with the sound projects copies, and i liked better the sound of the sound projects in the high end, wich i though could be attributed to the trapezoidal shape of theses speakers, and/or the fact that i had mounted the driver upside down, (means with the magnet into the horn )

Using the TMS-3 was my best memory for the quality of sound, even though they also did not really go up to the 250 hz that u have to cross the R2SH at.
i recently bought this very pair of TMS-3; loaded them with he PD 1550 that i had, made two sound check and a party with it, and i was happy with the result.

The first time i used the TMS-3 kicks, i didn't notice that they would be going higher in frequency than the HD 15. More recently, i was helping this friend who has the HD 15 to time-align his sound system, and i had the curiosity to plot the TMS-3 kicks since all the setup for this was already deployed, and i could verify indeed that the TMS' and the HD's have the same roll-off in their curve.

But then remained unanswered the existential question: how come the TMS kicks be crossed with their 10 inch high mids as high as 250hz, while the HD's are said to be used up to 180hz?
Same thing goes with the full Res2 boxes: i Noticed indeed during the two parties when i used the complete F1 Res2 boxes that it was the best coupling i ever heard with the mid and high section of it. You wouldn't hear any discountinuation in beetween the 15" and the 8" : the whole box worked as one sound source for all the frequencies it is covering, even though when measured separately, the 15" folded horn of the Res2 didn't seem to roll off higher in frequency than the HD15.

recently, i had a part of the answer to this, doing two sound check:

- first, one time with the kicks of the TMS downwards:

http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=961720check3small.jpg -

This would give a very strong coupling of the C-sub and the TMS kicks, like rock solid bass, and the feeling both speakers were really working together, but then u could hear a gap in the response in beetween the TMS kicks and the 8" of the high-mid :(

- Then i tried the other way round:

http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=218060speakersclupxbabamkingsday2016small.jpg -

ans that worked so much better ! The transition beetween the 15" and the 8" was now almost seamless; i could hardly hear any gap anymore in beetween the two.
This at the expense of the junction beetween subs and kicks: it wouldn't be so spectacular anymore, but it's also not like u would hear a gap, so that's all fine by me.

So now i believe this is the trick why TMS-3, but also Res 2, can use a folded 15" horn up to 250hz: the correct physical placement of it regarding of the 8"/10" that they use for upper frequencies !

It is to be noted that now i use a trick for the crossover with the R2SH: i already had measured that crossing the R2SH with a 24dB/oct linkwitz-riley high-pass filter @ 250hz (as indicated by the manufacturer) is equivalent to using a 48dB/oct linkwitz-riley high-pass filter at the same frequency, and is also equivalent to using a 48dB/oct butterworth high-pass filter @ 274hz -all three settings don't remove any of the frequencies played by the R2SH.
But then, using that last setting in combinaison with a 48dB/oct butterworth low-pass filter @ 274hz on the folded horn is a whole different story, since it removes less of the upper range of the 15", wich frequencies are already dampened by the natural roll-off of the folded horn, and since making use of the butterworth type of filter creates a +3db boost at the crossover frequency beetween the 8" and the 15", wich is also what u want to extend the response of the 15" in its upper range.

As for weather a 15" folded horn can sound good at theses frequencies, i believe now that it's very much a matter of wich driver is beeing used, as i explained in this thread:

http://forum.speakerplans.com/pd154-vs-pd158-vs-pd1550_topic35857.html

Edited by ultramars10 - 25 May 2016 at 6:54pm
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vmh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vmh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2016 at 9:16pm
Have you tried the HD15s 'up the other way around'?

I have some XT8 mid horns, already built into mid/top cabs, and some 15'' drivers i am thinking of using to build some kicks to go with them but was worried about the gap between the 15s and the 8s.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultramars10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2016 at 9:32pm
well, on the tms-3, the kickbins are located at one end of the box, so orientation matters drastically, while on the HD15, the kick-bins are on every end of the box Tongue

but i will indeed  try very soon different orientations for them regarding of the 8", and i'll post about it Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vmh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 2016 at 10:05pm
Thanks.
That would be interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultramars10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2016 at 1:39am
hello again,

so here's the test setup:



and here's the plot:



blue = tms-3 folded horns, orange = 2 X hd15

Then, once i was finished with the pink noise, i played the same kick loop in both, and what i heard was in range with what the graph shows.
It is to be noted though that the HD-15's were loaded with PD158, and TMS-3 with PD1550's.

Also, the graph seems to show the HD 15 having a little bit more output, but it seems that one of the PD 1550 in the TMS had less output that the other, as i could judge by hear (*), so i put a jacket in its horn, and compared the sound of the remaining tms horn with a single HD15  (still playing the same kick), and by hear i would say the output level was very similar.

i used a 274 BW48 low-pass filter for the listening test with the kick.

the graphs seems to say that the TMS would go slightly higher, but then i tried to figure it in a different way, wich was to adjust the cuttoff frequency of the low-pass filter until it wouldn't change the response anymore, and in both case it was 325 hz with a BW48 low-pass filter, so i'd say the roll-off frequency is the same for both enclosures.

(*) i have 3 freshly reconed PD 1550 and one PD 1550 with original membrane, so i'll check soon if the quiter PD 1550 could be the one with the original membrane, though it seems wierd to me that it would sound more quiet...






Edited by ultramars10 - 09 June 2016 at 1:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vmh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2016 at 11:05pm
That's interesting that the HD15 goes up to 250hz when it is supposed to only go up to 180.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vmh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2016 at 11:06pm
Looks like it should work ok with XT8 mids.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ultramars10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2016 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by vmh vmh wrote:

That's interesting that the HD15 goes up to 250hz when it is supposed to only go up to 180.


It's not that it doesn't go above 180hz, it's just that it doesn't sound good above 180hz if loaded with PD154 Wink

i spoke about it here:

http://forum.speakerplans.com/pd154-vs-pd158-vs-pd1550_topic35857_page1.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote njw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2016 at 9:53pm
They don't sound good above 150hz whatever they're loaded with I find.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vmh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2016 at 11:22pm
Probably better for me to just build standard XTro cabs then.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2016 at 12:13am
Xtro don't sound good at anything
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vmh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2016 at 2:07am
Arrrggh.
So i have a pair of XT8 horns and four 15'' drivers.
What 15'' kicks will work up to 250/300 hz to meet the XT8's?

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