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HD15 Measurements
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JulianDA View Drop Down
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Points: 110 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JulianDA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 September 2022 at 11:56pm
I am looking forward for your results :)

But regarding your question, i don't think that i am the right person to answer this since i am lacking the experience in reproducing music with a lot of vocals... I like the sound of our horns for techno and psytrance, but we never play "normal" music through them for partys. 
But there are a lot of people with more experience and knowledge on this forum that can maybe answer it for you :)
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I agree with your argument. 
Actuallly lot of kick bin / midbass are used up to 250Hz. 
E.g. : Evo6 15”section, turbosound tse215, Martin f2b / f215…
Can I assume this should be the upper limit of a FLH/BPH of 15” doing midbass? 
Reflex obviously can go higher but have others disvantages

@julienDA
Ok thank you I play lot of techno too. Then in your situation despite of techno hasn’t got much vocals do you find hd15 honky too?


Edited by Besa - 22 September 2022 at 12:06am
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JulianDA View Drop Down
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Points: 110 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JulianDA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2022 at 12:13am
Originally posted by Besa Besa wrote:

@julienDA
Ok thank you I play lot of techno too. Then in your situation despite of techno hasn’t got much vocals do you find hd15 honky too?

Yes, that was one of the main reasons for our upgrade. but from 70-150Hz we liked our HD15. The only "problem" for us was the, for a lack of better words, slower/muddy sound that comes from having a resonant chamber for the lower frequencies. A normal FLH sounds better for kicks in my opinion because of the better transient response. 
But this is not so bad that it isn't usable. Its more of a preference i think and we were really happy with our HD15 for a long time. 


Edited by JulianDA - 22 September 2022 at 12:14am
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Besa View Drop Down
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Points: 35 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Besa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 September 2022 at 12:16am
I ever thought that hd15 was the best bin in terms of transient response. I need to listen other type of bins. 
Thank you for the infos 
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RoadRunnersDust View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Besa Besa wrote:

Thank you for the measurements. 
This week I’m going to buy 6x Funktion one Evo6sh. They should be crossed at 220hz reading the website. 
I think it could be dangerous to cross them lower. 


Unless you want an expensive recone bill, I wouldn't recommend crossing the EVO6 any lower than Funktion specify.

HD15 are totally inappropriate for use running up that high due to the honking sound they produce much above 140-150Hz.

Calum over at calumaudio.co.uk is supposed to be working with a new 15" BPH design in the next few weeks that should be perfect for the job if you're in no rush and have the budget for new-builds, otherwise you're going to be looking at TSE-115/215, Funktion F115/215, or some sort of straight horn if you don't want the more signature Turbo/Funktion sound to match your tops
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https://www.funktion-one.com/products/evo-7tl-215/ is definitely what you want, regardless of the EVO box on top. Just depends if you can get them at a price you like.
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The Funktion One F215 is designed to go with the Evo 6EH. If you have paid the proper money for the Evo 6EH I would highly recommend getting the proper solution, why pair a £3k mid top with a DIY kick? 
The 215 reaches the 10" of the evo really nicely, others can sound quite knocky and struggle to meet the 10" properly. I've never heard an HD15 I was impressed by.

Definitely do not drop the crossover of the 10" lower, F1's whole design philosophy is centred around getting as broad a freq response out of the axe-head, it's already at the limit.


Edited by re-production - 22 September 2022 at 7:01pm
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Besa View Drop Down
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Points: 35 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Besa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 September 2022 at 12:57pm
@teeth, @roadrunnersrust:
actually the 10" is crossed at 220Hz with f215 or with 15" in evo6e. on the back of the horn of evo6sh there is 170Hz as minimum crossover indication. probably I won't broke them playing lower than 220Hz but they sound bad. 
but,
Res3SH actually use the same 10" despite of the 1" driver that is smaller compared to the 1.4" of the evo6sh. 
if you try to go to crossover settings of evo6sh on Funktion one website it will auto-redirect you on res3sh page, in wich 10" is crossed HPF 173Hz, that's lower enough to meet hd15 without eccessive honkyness and staying safe until I'll buy/build other enclosure. 

Why I want to build other plans over buying f215mk2?
FIRST
Because there's lack of f215 in Europe. lot of 218 and 221 but no 215. I can find evo7EL that @toastygost link on Facebook marketplace but the guy ask 7900€ for evo7EL + evo7EH and I think it is too much. 

SECOND
Especially (and that's MY theory) because let mid/high sounding good it's more difficult than bass because of the shorter wavelengths of the frequency of mid high. There is less margin of error causing phase issues and resonance. 
Bass frequency is a different manner, it's easy to measure interaction of wave (e.g. cardioid) to manipulate them accurately. 
In fact, you can build a decent reflex 18" and you could putting in that a lot of 18" woofers and you even get good sound. 
Try to do the same with the evo6 Chinese copy, their driver suck...
Reading the forum there are people who have tried also e.g. f2b claim that they sound better compared to F215. The problems are its weight and its high build capacity requirement. I think I can build better cab than f215 or I can reach the same quality with less money.

Returning in topic.
Then we can assume that HD15 is an all-round bass bin designed to be used, in groups, for music that don't require subs, more than a midbass bin, especially if loaded with PD154 that is a strong woofer (high MS & BL) suited more to bass duty.
This is caused by its bandpass design that allow only a narrow band to be strongly reproduced with decent quality. 
In the next two weeks I will do the tests on my own and I will share the results, trying to compare also the arraying of 6x hd15 in different ways, that's an argument never discussed in depth on the forum.
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RoadRunnersDust View Drop Down
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Points: 432 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoadRunnersDust Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 September 2022 at 1:48pm
Make absolutely sure that is a “minimum crossover” figure and not the usual “frequency response” figure Fk1 put on the backs of their cabinets. They’re two very different things. I’d also not set much faith in an erroneous link on a website that is hardly the best written in the world… 
https://www.funktion-one.com/crossover-settings/evo-6/
Looks like it’s a fairly constant 220Hz HPF for that 10” to me.
I’m sure it’s an identical driver and horn as the RES3SH, I can’t imagine why they would do any R&D to improve a design and release it under a new model name Embarrassed

Lots of people go on about how great the F2B is yet you very rarely see people using them (in contrast to a *lot* of people running BPH, especially old Turbo kit and Funktion). Be wary of the opinion of people on the internet building their imaginary sound system or those with rose-tinted hearing aids. Having heard both, I would take a TSE-215 every day of the week to run underneath a Funktion MH if I had no other choices.

Yes, it’s harder to get a mid frequency horn to sound good due to the shorter wavelengths being more prone to geometry flaws creating issues. Bass is easier to design for but that is not the same thing as it being “easy” to design. Plenty of people have made truly awful sounding bass bins.

As for the HD15, it’s not even an all-round bass bin since it can’t do either end of the bass range properly. It’s just a not very good attempt at a TSE-115. Rog set about to do something ‘equivalent’ to a Turbo box without directly ripping off the turbo box. The fatal issue with that is in order to get the balance of chamber volumes plus the correct horn geometry to reach up without bonking requires something very similar to the Turbo box. After that it’s a matter of selecting the right driver, which is less than straight forward.

There’s plenty of posts about arraying bass bins, including BPHs on here? I’m not sure what difference you think you will perceive other than making the issues at the top and bottom of a HD15s response worse, as pretty much all of the bass arraying techniques revolve around compromising output in exchange for dispersion control. The first thing to start suffering is top end response (due to the wavelength issue, same as above) which isn’t something a HD15 can really stand to have compromised much further before it becomes a one-note box.

Quote
I think I can build better cab than f215 or I can reach the same quality with less money.
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL


Edited by RoadRunnersDust - 23 September 2022 at 1:50pm
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Besa View Drop Down
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Points: 35 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Besa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 September 2022 at 9:53pm
you need to look at evo6sh not evo6e. evo6sh is the skeletal one https://www.funktion-one.com/products/evo-6sh-skeletal/. res3sh also called res3sh EVO, it has the same 10", like the complete version res3 & res3mk2. 
Their R&D adjust the x-over and delay for sure, but I suppose the driver must be the same
I forgot to say that f2b can be a one bass solution for small venue instead of f215 that can't drop as low as f2b. 

Plenty of people have made truly awful sounding bass bins. 
LOL, that's true. But there's also plenty of good project and if you have CNC and a pair of good old hands you can do miracles. 

probably I understood noting about dispersion and arraying, and when I search on here I found nothing interesting, may I have used wrong qwery in the research. 

finally, you should avoid teasing me. you can reach better quality, or high spl, or lower weight/dimensions, at a lower price. The difficult is getting all of 3. 
What do you think about new generation neo driver and those hybrid reflex/horn/bandpass? 
the problem with horns is that you need at least 4 (or 2 double) to get proper sound, so it is not so scalable
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RoadRunnersDust View Drop Down
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Points: 432 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoadRunnersDust Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 September 2022 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by Besa Besa wrote:

you need to look at evo6sh not evo6e.

No. Like I said, don’t take an erroneous link on a website for gospel. If you scroll down the link I provided you will see EVO6EH/EVO6SH (functionally/acoustically the same ‘cabinet’) listed with the HPF of the 10” at 220Hz.

Quote res3sh also called res3sh EVO, it has the same 10", like the complete version res3 & res3mk2. 
Their R&D adjust the x-over and delay for sure, but I suppose the driver must be the same
LOL

None of those model numbers are EVO6SH, “I suppose” is an impressively shakey bit of ground to base that assumption on when you apparently don’t understand how many minute and seemingly insignificant changes could be made which would drastically alter the safe cutoff point for that mid-horn and driver.

Unless you’ve got some inside info on what Fk1 were getting up to in their R&D department that lets you say they are identical for certain beyond wild speculation of nuggets on the internet?

Quote I forgot to say that f2b can be a one bass solution for small venue instead of f215 that can't drop as low as f2b.

Is that based off of spec sheets or real hands-on experience with the cabinets? Because F2B are no more a one bass solution than equivalent cubic footage of F215 IME. (Regardless of the fact you’d have to be a maniac to use a 215 instead of a 121 in that situation).

Quote there's also plenty of good project and if you have CNC and a pair of good old hands you can do miracles.

I’m not sure what CNC has to do with it? If you’re under the apprehension that a CNC cut cabinet is some panacea for high quality speakers, that’s just simply not true. Lots of people have discovered this the hard way. CNC routers are about production speed and repeatability, nothing more.

Quote probably I understood noting about dispersion and arraying, and when I search on here I found nothing interesting, may I have used wrong qwery in the research.

The search on here is like a chocolate teapot LOL It’s easier to use Google.

Quote finally, you should avoid teasing me.

After hearing/reading pretty much the exact same words from hundreds of people, it is truly still amusing to hear it again. I’ll eagerly await evidence of the exception to the rule though :)

Quote What do you think about new generation neo driver and those hybrid reflex/horn/bandpass?

There are a few modern Neo drivers that are quite interesting as they stand out from the rest that seem to pretty much be focused on catering to the “put this driver in a reflex box and feed it a million watts” market. It seems the market is full of high-strength motors and cones made heavier to be able to withstand that force without tearing, to the detriment of any other final metric beyond SPL/W. Thankfully there are still a few offerings that focus on making the cone as light and stiff as possible, then accelerating it as effectively as possible with the neo motor. Motors may be stronger than ever before but the rules of inertia haven’t changed considerably AFAIK LOL

I’ve still not heard a “new” design that doesn’t have serious transient response / punch issues. They invariably sound muddy and seem to rely on SPL to obscure the fact. When a drummer hits the kick drum I want to feel like I’ve been kicked in the gut, not like I’ve been assaulted by a giant marshmallow.
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Points: 2740 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Father-Francis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 September 2022 at 12:43am
All you need Martin 215mk3 goes from 40-50 to 250hz maybe more , there’s just nuff kgs to lift . This is a design that Martin will not come after you , but with the price of ply now I would buy some used stuff , I take you are in uk so you have never heard the other 215’s or 115 from the rest of Europe? Funny every time we talk about cabs people only mentioning uk stuff , jump out of that uk box , nuff said . No pm’s please, keep it on here , in  two days I and maybe one or two others will let you know about stuff you never hear , back in 2002 I asked about Powersoft, it was bla bla bla , cause nobody was really using them in uk, that should give you an idea.
 Roadrunner nuff points on your write , 👍🏿


Edited by Father-Francis - 24 September 2022 at 12:46am
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