Speakerplans.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Plans > X1
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Help me with delay
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Help me with delay

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
Ray666 View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 12 July 2005
Location: Estonia
Status: Offline
Points: 81
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Help me with delay
    Posted: 26 July 2005 at 9:49am
so here is the story: i have made 2 x1-s driven by RCF L18P300 and i have 2 DAS ds-115a active speakers and a 2/3/4 way crossover how do i know how much do i have to put the delay at my subs. im a estonian boy and don`t speak english very well. i just got 17 and i don`t realy know something about delayn. i have read other subjects speaking of it , but it seemed so hard. so if anyone knows how much should be the average delay on the x1s please answer. thanks for reading anyway.
Back to Top
mattcarus View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 12 January 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 24
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mattcarus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2005 at 3:19pm

Hi, welcome to speakerplans!

You don't need any delay for the X1 subs. You only need delay for horn-loaded cabs.

Matt

Back to Top
norty303 View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 18 August 2004
Location: Eastbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 8806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norty303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2005 at 1:26pm

Thats wrong actually.  You will need to delay the tops to time align with the X1.  BP6 type boxes tend to have quite a high group delay.

The best way to set up your delay is to use a tone generator or sine wave cd.  Start by phase reversing one of the boxes.  Then play a sine wave thru the system at the frequency you want to crossover at e.g. an 80hz sine wave if you crossover at 80hz.  Then start to delay the top box until you hear the tone go quieter.  There will be a point where the sound will be quietest.  Now change back the phase of the box you reversed. 

This is the correct delay setting for that crossover frequency.  If you wish to change the crossover frequency you'll need to do this again as the group delay can change quite drastically over very small frequency changes.

My BP6 box has a very large spike in the group delay at 80hz and goes up to 15ms.  Alternatively you could model the box in WinISD and look at the group delay graph but this is likely to be less accurate

My laser stuff: Frikkin Lasers
Back to Top
ceharden View Drop Down
The 10,000 Points Club
The 10,000 Points Club
Avatar

Joined: 05 June 2005
Location: Southampton
Status: Offline
Points: 11776
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceharden Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2005 at 3:25pm
That's a really good method of accurately working out the required delay with a minimum of equipment. Hadn't thought of doing it that way.  Will give it a go sometime.  I generally guess/cheat since most LMS's allow you to just enter the difference in metres; probably not that accurate.
Back to Top
rastaman View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 20 May 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 421
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rastaman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 July 2005 at 5:45pm
Ditto, thanks norty, nice tip.
Back to Top
norty303 View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 18 August 2004
Location: Eastbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 8806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norty303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2005 at 12:26pm

Thank Dom, he posted it here first - I'm just recycling old knowledge.

Make sure you do remember to flip the phase back again tho...

My laser stuff: Frikkin Lasers
Back to Top
JD01 View Drop Down
Young Croc
Young Croc


Joined: 23 August 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 819
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2005 at 1:55pm

BUT do the WinISD thing in addition to see if the settings are reasonable. Working with sines will give pretty accurate 0° aligning, but who says that it is the same cycle? So checking for reasonability (can I say that?) is pretty useful.

After aligning the boxes you can't change anything on your setup! No change of ANY filter frequency (highpass aka subsonic and lowpass on the sub, highpass on the top, even EQs in the outputs MUSTN'T change!), because they will change the groupdelay for that output on the crossover.

Another good way is to use the Behringer UltraDrive as LMS. With an ECM8000 attached, it can measure the needed delays by itself. IMO it is the best LMS below 800 Euros anyways (Yes, better than the DriveRack PA!).

Back to Top
norty303 View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 18 August 2004
Location: Eastbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 8806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norty303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2005 at 2:55pm
Yep, i do the ECM8000/Ultradrive thing myself.  But you can trick them also and its good to visually check the settings to ensure they look right
My laser stuff: Frikkin Lasers
Back to Top
Dom View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 25 February 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1700
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2005 at 5:18pm

Originally posted by JD01 JD01 wrote:

Working with sines will give pretty accurate 0° aligning, but who says that it is the same cycle?

With bass you should be ok - at 80hz a cycle is over 4m long.  You've got to be a fair way off the mark before you get a whole cycle out.  As you move up the frequency bands you've got to be a bit more accurate with your initial guess...

"It sounded like a million fire engines chasing ten million ambulances through a war zone and it was played at a volume that made the empty chair beside me bleed."
Back to Top
Ray666 View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 12 July 2005
Location: Estonia
Status: Offline
Points: 81
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2005 at 9:26am
Hy Norty tnx for the  tip , but wich cab should i  reverse? and do tou think 44 hz crossing is to low on these subs? i tried the 80hz and it didn`t made as much noise when at 44 Hz so do you think its to low?
Back to Top
norty303 View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 18 August 2004
Location: Eastbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 8806
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote norty303 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2005 at 10:43am

You'll need to delay the tops.  It doesn't really matter which cab you reverse the polarity on but it might be easier to do the sub.

It should have made more noise at 80hz than 44hz as it should be playing more frequencies that you can hear.  Are you using a hi-pass filter on the bottom end?  What filter and slope are you using on the top end of the X1?  Are you cutting the tops off at the crossover frequency or letting them play full range as this could cause cancellation

My laser stuff: Frikkin Lasers
Back to Top
Ray666 View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 12 July 2005
Location: Estonia
Status: Offline
Points: 81
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ray666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 October 2005 at 4:40am
hy norty sorry to be so late with my answer but i havn`t got time to deal with this problem.

I´m using a behringer cx3400 and  ep2500 as amp. i´m going to get a digital cross so thats why i tried to understand what I should do with the delay. for now i`ve just placed top cabs behind the bass cabs with knowing the physics formula for delaying. it have helped me for some places where the stage is faced in one direction only.

oh btw i don`t know whats wrong but one of my x1-s have started clipping. i toke the driver(RCF l18p300) out from the cab and i dont seem to understand what is the problem. is the amp to much for the transducer? i`m running the amp in bridge and i have two transducers running behind one amp. is it toast, or i can just get repaired?


Edited by Ray666
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.