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Hog Scoop with Magnet outside (in Horn Mouth)?
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    Posted: 31 December 2018 at 12:16am
Greetings!

Having read back and forth between different tapped horn designs and scoops & after bilding some small tapped horns for my bicycle i'm asking myself why i can't find some people in the web discussion on mounting the driver magnet-in-mouth wise to a hog scoop? 

I'm interested in the hog design because i like the idea using the space of the speaker as last horn opening (sry for my poor english skills to describe things with nice words on here...).
But as far as i saw in an simulation of the horn path and a statement of rog mogale the last horn path is actually a little to big for a proper extending horn path design. Also i read & saw that it's a desing with a small compression chamber compared to popular super scooper designs. 
Said that i would need some for playing mostly dub & steppas & 'long-bass experimentals', so a big compression chamber with slower bass wouldn't be an issue, but the lower hz and biger horn mouth sound tempting. 
 Having seen & heard Dandelion Soundsystem also with an 21" magnet-outside-scoops-desing (https://www.facebook.com/114038961947131/videos/vb.114038961947131/1811658615518482/?type=3&theater) i ask myself, why no one is discussing this mounting (or why i can't find it? Please just send me the link if it's already been discussed, just saw on guy mentioning a friend of him done it one time with some obertone drivers because they didn't fit into the chamber, but no one was taking it up.)
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as far as I know if u reverse the driver in a standart flh/scoop design u have better magnet cooling and a small improvement in the 80hz region where normal scoop designs have a dip because the horn path and the direct radiation of the driver collide. There are lots of tapped horn designs where the driver is firing inside the horn. But if u compare the horn path of scoops and tapped horns u see quite a different path. So I doubt that there is a big difference if u reverse the driver in a normal scoop. Dandelion Sound for example designed their own scoop, thats something completely different. Because of the super low crossover of their 21 inch scoops I also doubt they reversed the driver because of some fq dips around 80 hz like a normal scoops...;) I think it is also just for cooling.

Correct me if I am wrong
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i know a crew who did this with v1000s in hogs, will good results , may find it drops a bit lower also as effectively your making the chamber bigger removing the driver basket out of it 
TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM
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Take a look at some of the heaviest dub sounds in UK, & you will see they mostly use conventional Scoops,  with modern drivers, and modern amps, up to the task.

Wink
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Points: 4873 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dub Specialist Sound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 January 2019 at 3:59pm
There are orther soundsystems doing the driver magnet on the outside of there scoops,
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Bro as we know , chamber bigger slighty worse cone control at high-power :-)
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maybe not a lot tbh when yu work out the internal litres a driver takes up
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http://mm-acoustics.com/sample-page/touring/m4-18/

I have 16. They are impressive....
When you gonna send me some $$ mate ?
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Thanks for all your thoughts on the matter!


Originally posted by Miles Miles wrote:

There are lots of tapped horn designs where the driver is firing inside the horn. But if u compare the horn path of scoops and tapped horns u see quite a different path. So I doubt that there is a big difference if u reverse the driver in a normal scoop. 

You mean different in terms of path length? So that the additional space has a smaller effect on the overall sound because in relative size it doesn't do much difference (instead on a smaller tapped horn design)?
To be honest i was interested in this question because of the difference it makes on a cubo sub (more spl with magnet in chamber but 5 hz lower when magnet in mouth), but as it's a smaller design it is logical that this kind of small changes have a bigger effect on the overall sound. And maybe because it's more hybrid between the bandpass and taped horn design making it more sensible on the chamber volume changed through the driver compared to a big hog. 


Originally posted by Miles Miles wrote:

as far as I know if u reverse the driver in a standart flh/scoop design u have better magnet cooling and a small improvement in the 80hz region where normal scoop designs have a dip because the horn path and the direct radiation of the driver collide.
Mmm, interesting. Wondering if this would effect the hog scoop on the high end too, or if it behaves  different here. As a magnet-to-crowd variation on a normal scoop would be vary unpractical, i assume that on a hog it could almost fit the outer dimensions so it would be a negotiable mounting on that design i guess.


Originally posted by Miles Miles wrote:

Dandelion Sound for example designed their own scoop, thats something completely different. Because of the super low crossover of their 21 inch scoops I also doubt they reversed the driver because of some fq dips around 80 hz like a normal scoops...;) I think it is also just for cooling.
True, that's probably the reason. Might be a good effect for a hog scoop as well (:








Originally posted by paulus paulus wrote:

i know a crew who did this with v1000s in hogs, will good results , may find it drops a bit lower also as effectively your making the chamber bigger removing the driver basket out of it 
Sounds interesting. Can you ask them if some of them could state their experiences here? Read that you can get lower with a bigger compression chamber but it also cuts max spill. I would be interested if they experienced that spl los as a noticeable factor. Special outdoor.








Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Take a look at some of the heaviest dub sounds in UK, & you will see they mostly use conventional Scoops,  with modern drivers, and modern amps, up to the task.

Wink
True. I don't want to beat on scoops here, just wondering about the reasons, why the hog scoop (as kind of hybrid between tapped horn and scoop) goes with magnet in chamber mounting resulting in a small compression chamber, while most tapped horn designs got magnet in mouth mountings without having a compression chamber at all ;)







Originally posted by Dub Specialist Sound Dub Specialist Sound wrote:

Bro as we know , chamber bigger slighty worse cone control at high-power :-)
(Sensitivity = cone controll i assume? I do i get it wrong?) 
As i read it makes it go lower with a loss in spl and sensitivity (which last of it was mentioned to be the reason for the "musical" sound of reaggae on a super scooper (as big chamber horn) in another threat. - just what i read through, might be wrong. Maybe someone can comment on this?

Originally posted by Dub Specialist Sound Dub Specialist Sound wrote:

maybe not a lot tbh when yu work out the internal litres a driver takes up
Mmm, one reason i wondered what effect it would have is because i came across a modeling of the horn path of an hog and an super scooper here: https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/259653-super-scooper-vs-hog-scoop.html (post by epa).
On the writen horn path you can see a compression chamber for the super scooper model but not for the hog modell (or am i dismissing something here?). So it seamed to me that the eq model wich everyone knows is based on a modeling without taking compression chamber into effect, while the super scooper modeling does. So i was wandering what happens if you do a hog with compression chamber.
If i get you right you mention it might not make an effect. Well, i roughly calculated it through now:

Hog Chamber: Calculated it as a triangel with roughly 0,5*(40cm*33cm) = 660cm^2 * 60cm (for wide) = 39.600 cm^3 (without driver!)

Mogale Super Scooper Chamber: roughly 22cm*47cm = 1.034cm^2*60cm = 62.040 cm^3

But now the driver is still missing. I googled a void 1000 as it was mentioned in this thread and got and came to this speakerplans  https://forum.speakerplans.com/ive-lost-the-plot_topic7742. - side with the picture of an void v18-1200 stating "Volume displaced 11,15 liters" wich i took as a random driver (neo drivers could be less i assume). So 11,15 liters are dm^3 = 11150cm^2. I subsctracted it from the super scooper, and added roughly the half to the hog (because only the volume of the membran biggers the chamber slighly here)

Actual Hog Chamber with Magnet in chamber: 39.600cm^3 - 11150cm^3 = 28.450 cm^3

Actual Hog Chamber with Magnet in mouth: 39.600cm^3 + 5500cm^3 = 45.100 cm^3
Actual Mogale Super Scooper Chamber with magnet in chamber: 62.040 cm^3 - 11150 = 50.890 cm^3

So the mounting chamber roughly 0,5 times bigger, having the value "1,5" if the original size would be "1" and the super scooper is roughly "1,7" than. So its still smaler than the chanber on the mogale super scooper but would be quite close to it. Closer than to it's original chamber size.

...or can't one compare the two chambers by just looking at the volume here because they are differently shaped, with the driver firing against a panel on the scooper while on the hog the it would be firing into a triangle?







Originally posted by RealitySound RealitySound wrote:

http://mm-acoustics.com/le-page/touring/m4-18/%20 - http://mm-acoustics.com/sample-page/touring/m4-18/
I have 16. They are impressive....
But i assume they are more like normal tapped horn designs without compression chamber, right?
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Well, typical tapped horn may have no additional compression chamber at all as well as no exponential/hyperbolic horn path.. some of them do have some expansion but its more like linear.
 
Hog scoop has a real exponential(or similar) horn path, thus making it act more like "actual horn", acoustic impedance matching device. This will load the driver differently compared to standard tapped horn. Lots of air mass in horn path requires strong drivers to work properly. Weak drivers just cannot move that air mass = so much cone movement and cone flapping. Poor output.
How about making the chamber even smaller? More efficiency?

Great design it is however, no doubt about that. Maybe I will try how they do having magnets outside.



Edited by Tonskulus - 03 January 2019 at 8:59am
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Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

Well, typical tapped horn may have no additional compression chamber at all as well as no exponential/hyperbolic horn path.. some of them do have some expansion but its more like linear.
 
Hog scoop has a real exponential(or similar) horn path, thus making it act more like "actual horn", acoustic impedance matching device. This will load the driver differently compared to standard tapped horn. Lots of air mass in horn path requires strong drivers to work properly. Weak drivers just cannot move that air mass = so much cone movement and cone flapping. Poor output.
How about making the chamber even smaller? More efficiency?

Great design it is however, no doubt about that. Maybe I will try how they do having magnets outside.


Mmm, i see what you mean. So, you would suggest something like this instead of a big chamber?: 
(quite crappy, but it seams the triangular chamber doesn't give a good option without having lost space...)
I assume it would play more linear with a smaller chamber but not as low? 
Mmm, seams there is no way to avoid getting crossover from somwhere so i could unse hornresp for this questions...

But regarding the generall question of magnet in mouth mounting: I see that in a taped horn the magnet is most of the time in the horn path, while on the hog it's kind of almost outside (almost like on a real scoop). So i thought the normal shape of a speaker is that way, so it can move the air most efficient. Whyle this is not important when playing into a horn (because the air can't really move in an other direction than back and forth), it would have an effect if the speaker plays to free air i guess? I'm wondering how big this effect is, maybe someone knows something about that? Could imagine that it has an bigger effect outdoors than indoors? 
Not sure if that is something hornresp is taking into account too?


Edited by SubMeditation - 04 January 2019 at 2:22pm
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But i assume they are more like normal tapped horn designs without compression chamber, right?

They do have a compression chamber. They are some sort of crossbread (hybrid) between a tapped horn and a backloaded horn. 


Edited by MarjanM - 04 January 2019 at 2:36pm
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