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cravings View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cravings Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2022 at 12:32pm
most people who are going to be influenced by a measurement are already convinced of their position on scoops.

most people who are not going to be influenced by a measurement are already convinced of their position on scoops.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Simeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2022 at 1:29pm
Agreed. 

It's very noticeable how there are differences in approach, now reflecting in how people are sounding. 

Physics is one thing, psychoacoustics /psychophysics is also something. Do the physics heads also study as hard in this area? 

A lot is based on the sound of things, rather than the measurement. The box isn't responsible for everything... The musician, engineer etc  can be much more significant than a reading on a meter. 

It does make music far more interesting, all the better for it .. but a bit of a dieing breed. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sarsen1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2022 at 1:38pm
Data is useful, informed subjective opinion and comparison of varying opinions is also useful. That's why both qualitative and quantitative are used for research I suppose.

Scoops do seem to suffer a particular sort of bias which is probably based more in musical preferences rather than anything else. Most would agree that that techno is not scientifically proven to be 'better' than dub or vice versa, however plenty of people are happy to suggest the sound emitted from box A is 'better' than box B. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote luton_soundman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2022 at 1:58pm
Measuremente can be useful of course. But at the end of the day when you're walking around the venue you knowwhat you can feel and hear compared to something else. You may not know the exact db difference at what frequency exactly but you know enough. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2022 at 2:07pm
Most what I read is subjective things. Yes psychoacoustics plays a role, but if for instance scoops are that much better, why don't we see them more instead of a dual 18 BR?           

If you just simply look at measurement data, I do not see how you can get influenced that much that you have a strong position on one cab. You do the measurement, you look at the data, compare the data. After that you can always look at it more personal and see what is your preference eventhough the data would suggest A over B.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2022 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

This is the problem with sp. No matter what you do or how many hundreds are there to witness who share the same opinion those who wern't there will say it didn't happenThumbs Down

All questions have been open minded and just trying to understand what appears on the surface to be counter intuitive.  I dont believe anyone said it didn't happen, on the contary its the insistence it did that made me want to find out why. 

I dont think thats a problem with sp, i think thats a strength. 

If there is a problem its that no one can back it up with measurements and all the data is subjective opinion, despite this being an ongoing question on here for years. 




Yes, exactly.

Hundreds of pages, with thousands of posts - and near to no data! Can't anyone in "the scene" afford REW?  Confused

Or, better - get together & buy, borrow or beg SMAART.  A few graphs would tell us a lot more than all the psychoacoustic babble we see here. Sound is a very subjective/individual thing and the only way of actually evaluating any system has to be with a proper - and repeatable test, ie pink noise & a proper measurement setup. Otherwise, there are too many variables that can influence one's opinion. What sounds good one day, might sound like crap if you're listening after a big meal/too much to smoke!!   LOL LOL LOL

I actually know one guy that has a stage-truck with a system set up there made by a local company, that uses bass bins very similar to the Hog. On top, they have copies of the EAW KF750. I have mixed many times on the system and have no complaints - albeit 90% of the guy's work are DJ's. For that - the system is great. I do know that the guys that built the cabs did have a load of headaches getting it all in phase/sounding ok and the system (obviously) comes with it's processor and presets programmed in. All done with SMAART.  Smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Simeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2022 at 3:46pm
The main clear confusion I believe is around some people thinking scoops are being suggested for all music replication & others who play mostly reggae using scoops with the heritage of sound culture. 

They are two different things, hence the divide. I would not suggest scoops for a wider range. 

Suggesting psychoacoustics is babble is unwise as it is a part of physics, so a bit contradictory to imply it isn't important... In most cases it is more important. As long as you think you are hearing something & are impressed is more impressive than someone telling you a number evidencing the quality of something, when it sounds ordinary. If 'knowing' is your thing then go for it, but it seems departed from music... Which I am presuming is the point of most speaker systems. 

Each to there own, everyone persue it as far as they can take it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2022 at 4:02pm
Where did anyone say psychoacoustics is not a factor? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2022 at 10:15am
Originally posted by cravings cravings wrote:

most people who are going to be influenced by a measurement are already convinced of their position on scoops.

most people who are not going to be influenced by a measurement are already convinced of their position on scoops.


I am skeptical of any loudspeaker design, be it reflex, bandpass, FLH, Scoop, horn hybrid, until I have heard it play real music, in a stack, in a venue.

There are people who believe all they need to see are sims, or 1W@1M measurements, of a cab, to be assured of it's performance. To each their own.

Have lost count, of how many cabs, people have put forth sims for, or purported measurements, and in reality they failed to accomplish anywhere near the measurements, playing music at SPL.

In one instance, designer sold cabs to buyer, stating measurements of cab response flat down to 30hz.

In reality, playing music, stack of 4x such cabs, failed to extend below 60hz at SPL, and in fact, system owner blew most of his drivers, trying to match the sub output, of 4x of my Scoops.






Edited by levyte357- - 09 August 2022 at 10:19am
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2022 at 10:40am
Things like 1W/1M only tell a small part of the story, there are many more tests that can be done to verify something. 

Personally, I design something with the helps of being it hornresp, winisd etc. (and in the future akabak) and knowledge I am steadily building over the years. After that stage a prototype is build, it gets verified by measurement. Why? because when designing something I have some specs in mind like F3, size, efficiency etc. If not good, possible adjustments would be made, and verified by measurement again until satisfactory. After that, give it a good listen and possibly use it in the field and ask for feedback. If those last two are not any good (personally and for others) I would move on to something different even if the response looks perfect.

I have to add, i have not yet encountered a case were it was not good enough in the end sound wise. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2022 at 11:12am
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

Things like 1W/1M only tell a small part of the story, there are many more tests that can be done to verify something.


Agreed, and know many Reggae dudes, who actively meter sub freq response of cabs at gigs. Think it is useful, for progressing your system.

I have said years ago, one of my favorite sub cabs is the Martin WSX.

I say this, to reinforce, I don't only rate Scoops, and know other designs that excel.

Even with lowly RCF driver, WSX  will do mid 40s in pairs, which is great for an FLH.
With design modified for modern 18sound/B&C, who knows what SPL is possible, in 40-50hz range.

I'm sure the 1W@1M measurements state something fantastically impressive for this cab, but in reality, mid 40's in pairs, is achievable.

So I prefer to hear about what people have done with cabs, as opposed to what the specs say.





Edited by levyte357- - 09 August 2022 at 11:16am
Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2022 at 11:25am
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

Things like 1W/1M only tell a small part of the story, there are many more tests that can be done to verify something. 

Personally, I design something with the helps of being it hornresp, winisd etc. (and in the future akabak) and knowledge I am steadily building over the years. After that stage a prototype is build, it gets verified by measurement. Why? because when designing something I have some specs in mind like F3, size, efficiency etc. If not good, possible adjustments would be made, and verified by measurement again until satisfactory. After that, give it a good listen and possibly use it in the field and ask for feedback. If those last two are not any good (personally and for others) I would move on to something different even if the response looks perfect.

I have to add, i have not yet encountered a case were it was not good enough in the end sound wise. 




This is a really common problem. Most lumped element models are axisymmetric and straight. People simply don’t build what they model, because of failing to account for the acoustic behaviour of bends or rectangular sections when folding the design and doing the CAD work.

Verification is an absolutely vital step, and you have to measure for that. If the electrical impedance and axial responses of the prototype & model don’t match, one of them is ‘wrong’.

The typical modelling software is also purely linear acoustics and doesn’t include high order modes, thermal rise, or diffraction effects. That means the high power output in things like Hornresp is to be taken with a very large pinch of salt. Even AKABAK 3's coupled LEM & BEM is only valid in the linear domain, and loudspeakers are often far from linear devices.

Nonlinear modelling is possible but is hugely complex & computationally expensive. However nonlinear behaviours can be easily measured, with tools like an oscilloscope, thermal sensor & microphones. Those items used to be obscenely expensive and strictly available at serious laboratories, but can now be yours with a laptop & a few hundred bucks expenditure. So prototyping & measurements are still a massively important part of the design process.

Either way, scoops aren’t some magical cheat code to get around physics either. They’re very, very well understood acoustically - and don’t behave like a horn at low frequencies either.

The problem is that all of these comparisons are not apples to apples. As has been stated many times in this thread, stacks of different sizes are taken to venues and put in different places, driven with different signals (music, filtering/preamp, engineer, amplifiers) at different levels. That’s not scientific, although it is fun.

There’s plenty of room for both, and no serious speaker designer or manufacturer would ever claim otherwise. Let alone develop & release a product without doing one or the other, extensively.


Sadly, the only scoop design for which I've seen this process followed & data reported in remotely standard ways is Mikko's Polar Bear. That's despite several offers on the part of myself & others - for free - to find out [i)why & how these 'subjectively observed behaviours' occur 🤷🏻‍♂️ in the face of such evidence & many, many threads just like this one, it's not surprising that people assume those who love & promote scoops simply don't want to know or care.

Anyway, back to the navel gazing!
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