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i would like to construct horns...

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    Posted: 01 July 2009 at 2:11am
FIRST!!!---i used to post thisaforum a lot back four or so years ago on a name that was along the lines of spacerobot or something.  I forgot name and password and don't even have access to the email it was under so im not THAT new.  I was about 17 back then so my lack of money made application of my threads near impossible but WHATEVER this acount is cool.

I built an X1 and also a few rephlex boxes over the years and was always let down for some reason or another.   I was influenced by the whole "less speakers doing more even if you go 4 or 5 way to make the boxes do more with less OF them overall even if they are beast boxes" mentality that i have no idea was just inside my head or learned from here or other forums i dont care its good advice...

I am thinking about doing a WALL of small speakers - horn.  Even if it is more pricey and a bit more space consuming i actualy think it fits my needs.  I have trolled about on hornresponse.exe QUITE a bit and always felt a TON of small horns (10 or 12 inch drivers with MOSNTER xmax and MONSTER wattage handle and small housings and whatnot...) would be way way way better than some HUGE MOFO horns or 6th orders and whatnot for what i wanted in a rig.  The quantity of cabinets would get me the lows i need and the smaller speakers would get me things that i really don't know if are in my head but from my use of sims and stories heard about scoops and bandpass.

I want my rig to sound crisp like HUGE expensive headphones and epicly resonant and boom like the horn of a mayan warrior spirit resounding off the hills of time...

Any wisdom?  also two other things - first not so important second important.  FIRST is that i follow science a bit and heard about a WACKY discovery of high temp plasma transistors capable of revolutionizing the amp ability + heat capacity of MOST modern transistor based technology.  I was wondering if they will become a "10k watts @ 8ohms uber amp"reality soon or @ the least i coudl get my hands on some (yea i know thats an absurd thing to ask here but WHO KNOWS there are crazy people this is BAT country yo...) SECOND and most importan --- part of my eventual plan for tons of small bass speakers was to actualy plastic form HORN shaped HORNS and little housings for my 10 or 12 inch bass speakers.  they would look sort of like megaphones only slightly bigger and more horny.... I would try to mount them in PVC boxes that i cousl simply fit on top of each other to build WALLS of stabile bass and stack in my room like boxes even tho just wire frames of PVC not ACTUALY boxes...  I know a thing or two about plastic forming from my days spent in comic book / animation conventions (how do you THINK peopel get vader costumes? being nerds? oh.... lol) but i was curious if anyone had XP here with such things...

OK so monster monster amps to look out for to handle like MANY MANY speakers running mad bass, plastic forming tips, and perhaps advice on drivers and overall physical aesthetics (i mean the functioning math turned physical aesthetic not just looks...)??????  thanks for the advice!!! apologies for the long post my car and bike are both RIP so i sort of dont get out much anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ಠ_ಠ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2009 at 3:07am
also i know crossover comes from finished DESIGN but i intend to design a whole rig and i was wondering if anyone who has tried this or vaguely this-esque shenanigans could advize me on perhaps planning roughly what frequency ranges these dif stacks would cover with my selections and horn program stuff?OH YEA also perhaps a few more good horn design programs to use?  money aint an issue i got some BIT TORRENT yo...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote space-face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2009 at 4:33am
the standard horn modeling program that people seem to use here is hornresp, it's free but takes a little getting used to. For other cabinet types such as reflex or band pass you can use winisd which is very easy to use. it may be possible to use something like comsol multiphysics to model horns accurately.... might be worth a go. 

can you post up some sims of a wall of 10 or 12 inch short horns that beats a small stack of 18 or 21 inch folded horns? I can't imagine that working terribly well. Also while there are a few 12" drivers with high power handeling and xmax 18" drivers in general move more air and can handle more power.

you might want to condense your post into something a bit more readable it's kinda hard to work out what you're asking!

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2009 at 6:21am
this was awesome, and could have kept up with some big horns



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Father-Francis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2009 at 7:36am
Originally posted by ಠ_ಠ ಠ_ಠ wrote:

also i know crossover comes from finished DESIGN but i intend to design a whole rig and i was wondering if anyone who has tried this or vaguely this-esque shenanigans could advize me on perhaps planning roughly what frequency ranges these dif stacks would cover with my selections and horn program stuff?OH YEA also perhaps a few more good horn design programs to use?  money aint an issue i got some BIT TORRENT yo...


take another 4 years or so then come back the 10"-12" will be better then 18"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommysb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2009 at 8:25am
I think the man is right on the money. The practicalities of loads of smaller speakers are far greater IMO, power compression less, power handling per unit volume is more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ಠ_ಠ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 July 2009 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by tommysb tommysb wrote:

I think the man is right on the money. The practicalities of loads of smaller speakers are far greater IMO, power compression less, power handling per unit volume is more.


who? there were a few guys but none quoted or singled out... I think you were saying 10's and 12s are good? yea!!! i liked what i saw.  I also liked how much less heavy duty the housings needed to be for a lower weight cone moving per unit.  also there are 10s and 12s with 15-30 mm xmaxes they just require 1.5 watts and have efficiencies of 85db/w/m or whatever.... horns are the answer i say.  I also think the size would make an actual trumpety horn shaped horn plastic formed FAR easier.  The initial molds for plastic forming would be difficult love affairs slaving over some plaster of paris and tearing my hair out finding the best gauges and chem comps of plastic and heats and best vaccuum cleaner.... once i got that all worked out (which is annoying but not expensive) i could have hundreds pumped out in a matter of DAYS (worth it).

also im 21 now. Ill fess up to having my logic way out of wack any day.  my emotions tho are just sorta passively insane but stabile.  I was abused on a farm in kentucky for 15 years by the ghosts of an indian cemetary.  GOD BLESS THE BEATLES!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peter Moller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2009 at 1:31am
While it may be easier to fit a large number of smallish hornloaded cabinets into a vehicle, there are other things that will become an issue - wiring and amplification..

Just for the sake of the argument: If you build 24 12" bins that can produce the same output as 8 larger 18" loaded bins and decide to power with Crown MA5000 amps the difference will be:
18" solution: 1 amp, 2 cables between amp and stacks + 6 short link cables
12" solution: 3 amps, 6 cables between amps and stacks + 18 short link cables..

That said: If you can build a 12" bin that goes as low as a comparable 18" bin, the sound would theoretically be slightly "tighter" - less rumble and more punch and definition, but it depends greatly on the drivers used

I have recently chosen to drop my inventory of double 18 reflex bins and change to single 18 bandpasshorns - main reason being the sound, secondary reason being that they fit better into my logistics.. In my situation, the change only means an additional 4 short speakon cables to link the cabinets and less wasted space in the trailer..

if you do want to look at using smaller drivers, have a look at the Ciare 12.00SW and the Eminence Lab12.. There are already successful freeware designs out there for both drivers..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ಠ_ಠ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2009 at 2:22am
yea man 18" bandpass horns were VERY high on my list of potential speakers.  What bothered me about them was the LOWS but i think they could kick like mofos...  From all the speakers ive heard around town from the ones ive made to ones frineds built to expensive turbo sound rigs run by nerdy programmers who have more money than taste in music i have yet to hear something employing 18 incherss or higher and even 15 inchers that didnt have more unpredictable quirks than 12 inchers or lower...   bandpass and big speakers seem so finicky.  also the amp thing i agree with... i do think that i could get a TON of speakers going on one amp if i worked it and had the proper amp.  It all depends on the final design.  i DO know however, that most of the highly used 18" designs by people on forums like this are in the 5-11mm range for xmax.  Imagine a 17-30mm xmax 12 inch speaker horn... the horn part would easily make up for the 85 db/w/m efficiency those things get.  I think this has potential.

How about i start with driver choices.... anything over 16mm xmax pop into mind? i know of like... i think orion car audio and those lab thingies? i dont know...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Strange Daze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2009 at 9:15am
big Xmax.....car drivers??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sibulus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2009 at 9:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phildat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2009 at 2:01pm
wasn't it the beslar array principle or Beselar array or something like that? er.... Mykey...step up and help me out here..
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