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Lightweight vs heavy classics for subs

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serioussound View Drop Down
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    Posted: 25 December 2019 at 5:31pm
In the last days I have tried out some amps for my rigs.

I have some Lab gruppen 2000C and 4000 and QSC PLX 3402 lightweight amps.

Then I have some Crown Macrotech 2400 and some EV P3000.

My goal now is to come down in weight in my amp racks consisting of EV P3000 for subs, Macrotech 2400 for mids (15”) and EV P1200 for hf.

I tried Lab 4000 and QSC PLX 3402 for both single 18” and dual 18” subs and was suprised of how ”thin” they sounded compared to my Crown Macrotech 2400.

I dont even dare to put them up against my EV P3000 ...

My plan now is maybe use P3000 for sub then Lab 4000 and 2000C for mids and highs. Then I at least come down a little in weight :)

I really thoughted the lightweights should handle subs a little better what are your your experience?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2019 at 7:01pm
You have discovered what many have done before you.

The old Lab 2000 and 4000 just dont cut it on subs.
As you know by now, they Sound thin compared to the good old heavy weights.

I just love the EV P3000/Dynacord L2400, but the Crown MA beasts cant be beaten on pure muscle!
Modern amps can do it all more or less. But you have to pay a heavy pricetag then...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote serioussound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2019 at 7:12pm
Yes my budget are kind of tight so modern lightweight amps are not an option.

Is combine EV P3000 for subs with Lab 2000C and 4000 for mids and highs a good middle way to go for vome down in weight a little.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2019 at 7:18pm
Hi, don't judge lightweights or class D amps on more than 20 years old technology like those labs.
Have a look into powersoft k series, not new but still a reference for subs, newer big labs, mc2... and the story should change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote serioussound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2019 at 7:21pm
I know I dont judge todays amps I just judge the older ones I have tested. But Lab 4000 was used for powering older Lacoustic vdosc I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FOO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2019 at 7:29pm
I would choose the EV and Lab combo myself.
The older labs are great on mids and highs.

Today the Lab PLM pretty much kill off every other Amp. So history has changed.
I am running FP+ today. Great amps, lots and lots of power!!!

But if i could get the EV P3000 factory new, i would love to have a big heavy rack with them also. Just for fun :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conanski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2019 at 7:34pm
The QSC PLX series does have a bit of a reputation as not great on subs and they also don't do well on generators... voltage fluctuations will cause shutdowns, These will be fine on mids and highs though. That said people have been using these for many years and getting paid, most punters will never notice what amps are in your rack and the person paying the bill doesn't care as long as the gear is reliable.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 December 2019 at 7:39pm
Just read about the budget, so maybe even powersoft k8 could be out of reach. 
I had inukes before stepping up, if you can take the B word they weight like 6 kilos and spit incredibile power at 4 ohm for their price - check tests in this forum. I know there are some problems around but bought new and sold before warranty expires they were a good thing for us.
I love labs but those series you mention never shined on bass... 
I know they were used a lot in touring but i think the usage scenario Is different.
In the soundsystem world you carry few amps for (relatively) few boxes so you Need amps that perform well current wise, while touring has bigger budgets, headroom, walls of  subs and amps so amps work more on peak voltage, where those labs shined.

Nowadays lightweights are Better than old iron both voltage and current wise, but luckily we can still keep debating about tone forever.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martinsson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2019 at 3:11pm
So what was missing from a technical point of view? voltage and current capabillities? Other? Something must have been lacking since there seems to be a lot of concerns and expiriences voiced on the topic.

From what I understand the smps was hardly something recent in techical development at the time of implementation in pro power amps, so I asume that who ever implemented this back in the day knew full well what the result would be (apart from less wright) as would the companies that choose to indorse them.

If this asumption is correct then weight (convinience) took precidence over performance, so how did they make up for the loss in performance?


Edited by martinsson - 26 December 2019 at 3:11pm
Swedish Pro-fi diy-nerd - http://www.martinsson.cc/blog/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2019 at 4:02pm
"voltage and current capabillities?"

Yes. And I also remember reading a technical paper ages ago about phase shifts introduced by SMPS, especially at lower frequencies. I can´t find it now, but a fairly complex concept - and a definite problem in the early lightweight amps.


"how did they make up for the loss in performance?"

Short answer - DSP.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martinsson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2019 at 5:44pm
Just guessing here, but if this is true then this must have shown in the specifications, many amps from the early smps era most likley published the same set of specification methods as when they used conventional powersupplies (typically EIA, FTC and IHF), and I have a hard time believing they would drop in their output specification with next model (smps) but the load optimization may have shifted upwards from 2 to 2.667 or even 4Ohm, in short a less current demanding load optimization?

How would DSP make up for lack of outout capabillities? or did you mean that in it could ease the purchase decision in the context of the total product offer?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Earplug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2019 at 6:41pm
If you look at the way specifications are given over time, things did change - pulsed output power became the norm as opposed to 20Hz - 20kHz RMS power. Also, higher distortion figures are common in order to up the (perceived) power output.

DSP capability does make the newer amps seem a bargain - but more importantly can be used to limit the output and/or frequency response of the amplifier.

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