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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 10:09am
Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

[QUOTE=toastyghost]“

There is a difference for those who focus on reinforcing pre recorded music and those reinforce bands. Off the top of my head Iration Steppas – Jah is my Protector offers a continuous sine wave ranging from 30 Hz – 40 Hz for nearly 5 minutes.



just listened to it - sounds like significant peak to average ratio and duty cycle of about 50%. There is some 'music' with long sinewaves for basslines - most often amateurly produced dubstep - it sounds shit and destroys speakers.





There is roughly a 20 dB boost sine wave sweeping from 30 Hz to 40 Hz compared to 100 Hz. Sine waves have been used to create Bass lines in Dance Music since 1980's. Some are more extreme than others. I was not hired to critique one's musical taste. I am merely there to reinforce the sound.


I actually became familiar with the track when Rog used it to demonstrate the VOID Incubus System.


Best Regards,



Edited by Elliot Thompson - 11 June 2019 at 10:38am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 10:47am
Using a sine wave generator as the source for the bass synth your production process does not mean a pure sine wave is the resulting output when the tune is mastered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonskulus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 11:01am
yes there are many different waveforms producing different overall real power (wattage) to the voice coil.
50/50 square wave is the most "powerful" (and dangerous).

Square wave power  = U * I
Sine wave power = U(peak)/1.4 * I
and so on..

As example, amplifier can put 100Volts peak (rail voltage being slightly over 100Volts) maximum continuous voltage swing for 8ohm load. Now lets push that amplifier to the clipping thresold with different signals:

Square wave produces 1250Watts
Sine wave produces  613Watts

See, there is almost double the power compared to sine wave. Actually this is why heavily clipped signal can destroy speakers so easily because total power the voice coil has to dissipate rises dramatically.

Bass lines can be anything beetween the two. Sine wave is typical starting point but they usually add something to it, like some distortion, harmonics etc to make it sound better.

Anyway, there is no doubt that long and strong bass lines does the most stress to amplifiers and subwoofers.  But hey, who asked to use all those equipments at their maximum ratings? 
It's good to have enough head room there anyway.
2 ohms / channel is just fine as long as we stay far away from clipping. 








Edited by Tonskulus - 11 June 2019 at 11:08am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:


Bass lines can be anything beetween the two. Sine wave is typical starting point but they usually add something to it, like some distortion, harmonics etc to make it sound better.



No,  Basslines in real music pretty much always have a higher crest factor than a sinewave, they are pretty much never between a sine and a square wave, always a high crest factor than a sine.

The tune mentioned that was described as having continual sine wave when actually analysed did not,  it has dynamic, like practically all music.

Can you point me to a tune that features these mythical long drawn out sinewaves?  Ive looked, but never found one..


Edited by Timebomb - 11 June 2019 at 3:09pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris Grimshaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

No,  Basslines in real music pretty much always have a higher crest factor than a sinewave, they are pretty much never between a sine and a square wave, always a high crest factor than a sine.

The tune mentioned that was described as having continual sine wave when actually analysed did not,  it has dynamic, like practically all music.

Can you point me to a tune that features these mythical long drawn out sinewaves?  Ive looked, but never found one..


Kaiju - Hunter.

36Hz sine wave, but it's compressed, which adds a bit of harmonic content. IIRC, the crest factor below 100Hz is <2dB.
If you wanna cook drivers, that's my go-to.

Chris
Quality sound from Sheffield
www.grimshawaudio.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by Chris Grimshaw Chris Grimshaw wrote:

Originally posted by Timebomb Timebomb wrote:

No,  Basslines in real music pretty much always have a higher crest factor than a sinewave, they are pretty much never between a sine and a square wave, always a high crest factor than a sine.

The tune mentioned that was described as having continual sine wave when actually analysed did not,  it has dynamic, like practically all music.

Can you point me to a tune that features these mythical long drawn out sinewaves?  Ive looked, but never found one..


Kaiju - Hunter.

36Hz sine wave, but it's compressed, which adds a bit of harmonic content. IIRC, the crest factor below 100Hz is <2dB.
If you wanna cook drivers, that's my go-to.

Chris

Just analysed it,  with lowpass at 100Hz 24dB then normalised to 0dB its 6.4dB crest factor in the heavy bass section, if i hard limit at -1dB so it is slightly clipping then normalise to 0dB again its 5.39 dB crest factor across the heavy bass section, there are short bursts of around half a second that get down to about 4dB crest factor.

If you just look at the waveform you can see it does not have as high a duty cycle as a sine wave, there is some dynamic to it.  

  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 7:07pm
stop annoying with your data, timbomb! We want them feeeelings... :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 7:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Using a sine wave generator as the source for the bass synth your production process does not mean a pure sine wave is the resulting output when the tune is mastered.
Look at the Excision - X rated WinkSounds even better with subharmonics generator. The problem is the more distored and less sine looking bass waveform is - the weaker it is percived on same output. And it takes space in mix :( 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2019 at 11:55pm
Powersoft K 10
Maximum output voltage 200Vpeak
On 8 ohm it gives 2000W
I guess thats for its maximum Voltage as PSU is oversized.
So 2000W is ~(126V)^2/8ohm
So wattage given in spec is RMS wattage. Not wattage calculated based on maximum(peak voltage). Dont calculate crest factor of a bassline/peak. Calculate crest factor bassline/sineWink
N type & loefah - way of dub caspa remix
Kid Cudi - Day n Night the Widdler's Dubstep Remix


Edited by gen0me - 12 June 2019 at 1:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Timebomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 10:01am
Yes stated amp "wattage" is almost always calculated on RMS voltage, in pro audio anyway...

N type & loefah - way of dub caspa remix
Same process, 24dB lowpass at 100Hz, normalise = 8.6dB crest factor in the heavy bass section,  applied a hard limiter at -3dB so its clipping quite frequently, now its about 5.8dB crest factor in the heavy section.  Still lots of visible dynamics, clearly not as high a duty cycle as a sine wave.

Kid Cudi - Day n Night the Widdler's Dubstep Remix
7.18dB crest factor,  hard limit to -2dB (frequent clipping) =5.23dB crest factor.

I dont understand what you mean by "Dont calculate crest factor of a bassline/peak. Calculate crest factor bassline/sineWink"



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 June 2019 at 11:27am
"The problem is the more distored and less sine looking bass waveform is - the weaker it is percived on same output."

no, quite the opposite. the presence of higher harmonics (at a much lower level than the fundamental bass frequencies) leads to a much increased perception of loudness. also the pereceived loudness of a bass note is mainly defined by the maximum level at the start of the note, and by the sustain length (even when this is several dB lower level than the initial sound).
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