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snowflake View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2019 at 2:22am
your post at 10.34pm - is that the phases of the speaker with or without the filters applied as in post at 10.18pm?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2019 at 8:08am
Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

your post at 10.34pm - is that the phases of the speaker with or without the filters applied as in post at 10.18pm?

With the filters 
But no delay and phase inversion and no eq


Edited by king david - 15 January 2019 at 8:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2019 at 4:37pm
finally sorted out, some proper info after all this mess soon

Edited by king david - 15 January 2019 at 10:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2019 at 3:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2019 at 3:47pm
these are hog 30-60 24db LR and es18 68-12db butterworth to 130 24db LR, best I could do in phase alignment...after applying delay the 50-90hz part is within 30degrees of phase...any suggestions to make it better?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2019 at 5:11pm
At which exact frequency is the acoustic crossover now?

Edited by gen0me - 20 January 2019 at 5:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2019 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

I work on the basis of using the lowest order filters possible to protect drivers and put the different sections in phase across the crossover region. the other approach is to use the highest order filters possible so that even if the phase relationships aren't right the crossover region is so narrow you can't hear the problem.
As ES18 and hogs are totally different boxes I suggest second approach. 
Plus crossover is pretty low so far away from kick area. Shifting time between 40hz bass and 80hz is not important.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2019 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Originally posted by snowflake snowflake wrote:

I work on the basis of using the lowest order filters possible to protect drivers and put the different sections in phase across the crossover region. the other approach is to use the highest order filters possible so that even if the phase relationships aren't right the crossover region is so narrow you can't hear the problem.
As ES18 and hogs are totally different boxes I suggest second approach. 
Plus crossover is pretty low so far away from kick area. Shifting time between 40hz bass and 80hz is not important.



acoustic crossover is around 75hz...

when I got the dsp I had some technicians to try setting up the system, I just gave it to them without giving them any input other than "lets put it in phase, got no time nor knowledge to do it"...
and they did, using various combinations of filters, hog is 35hz w/12db butterworth and 100hz 24db LR, kicks are 68hz/100hz butwerworth 12db, mid top starts at 100hz 12db LR, plus massive eq on hogs and 125hz on mid top, everything is in phase and sound ok for normal use, but theres no low bass at all (hog is -6db down at 52 and 90hz), and the mid top doesnt sound natural with all that 125hz boost, I've tried at full tilt and almost destroyed everything, and I can't really play with -6db @ 52hz, but if I change the hog settings, all phase alignment gets ruined...

so I have to do it by myself now, I can still use the old analog setup but of course I try to get better results


Edited by king david - 20 January 2019 at 6:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2019 at 7:16pm
Here is the file:
First is some high freq noise (~15khz) that will be used as referrence, than 75hz.
So first play it on es18 (+usual hf setup) and record.
Than repeat with hogs +hf.

It will tell how much you have to move delay to be phased.


Edited by gen0me - 20 January 2019 at 8:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2019 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by gen0me gen0me wrote:

Here is the file:
First is some high freq noise (15k-20khz) that will be used as referrence, than 75hz.
So first play it on es18 (+usual hf setup) and record.
Than repeat with hogs +hf.

It will tell how much you have to move delay to be phased.

my method was this, first I measured the boxes with no settings;
I added hpf, lpf and eq to have them quite flat but with a little overlap on crossover points and no direct 24db LR crossover, that from previous tests wasn't working good for phase alignment;
found the delays with REW this way https://forum.speakerplans.com/time-alignment-using-rew-and-cheap-mic_topic102425.html;
adjusted again eq to help with phase alignment, things didn't change much
added delay til I got a the biggest hole in response, then flipped phase on crossover and got the combined response, and its fine someway but
but still the es18 is 70hz -6db at 72hz, 12db butterworth at 68hz, I can cross lower and get to 50hz but then I need to eq that out to get phase more in line with the hog. not what I hoped, and what seems possible for others, if I touch the eq I mess the phase response...50-80hz overlap with hogs would be nice, 70/85hz overlap I was already getting it from the analog equipment. having upgraded to dsp and not getting things right would be a shame :) but being a newbie thats quite possible


Edited by king david - 20 January 2019 at 8:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 January 2019 at 9:34pm
First play with filters. Separately on ES18, separately hogs. Play as long as you will be satisfied with hpf on ES18 and lpf on hogs. You need to spend a lot of time on this. Different Q, diferent slopes. If the sound seems so muddy it happens due to a phase shift on filter, you can help here adding low shelf/high shelf. Experiment. When you will be satisfied choose acoustic crossover around -5db on both filters. Than time align them using some high freq impulse + generated sinewave of acoustic crossover frequency. Like in wave from my previous post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 5:04pm
Much better today with hog 30/60 24db LR and Es18 on 18 butterworth at 45hz...still no Es18 below 50hz but some nice 50/90hz overlap
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