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LR 48db/octave

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corell View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

these are hog 30-60 24db LR and es18 68-12db butterworth to 130 24db LR, best I could do in phase alignment...after applying delay the 50-90hz part is within 30degrees of phase...any suggestions to make it better?

delay the red trace (Hogs) a little and flip polarity. +-30° is perfectly fine and will give you 5db summation or more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 8:05pm
this is HOG 30-80hz 24db LR, ES18 45hz 18db but-130hz 24db LR

Edited by king david - 21 January 2019 at 9:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 9:33pm
this is how technicians made their setup on my system, phase and response of the sub(HOG 35hz 12db but-100hz 24db LR), kick (ES18 12db but 68-100hz), mid top (smt212 12db LR 100hz). 



actually both listening music and looking at this midtop and kick are ok, but hog isn't, but change of filters or eq would mess phase completely


Edited by king david - 21 January 2019 at 10:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 9:53pm
That technicians setup looks to me like they tried to measure indoors, or changed the reference delay between measurements. It's not good, anyways, in short.

Charlie Hughes of Excelsior also recommends this method, it at the least gets you in the ballpark and lets you play with filter types/position/slope
Quote 1) Remove the low pass filter from the subwoofer. If it can’t be bypassed then move it to as high a frequency as possible.

2) Remove the high pass filter from the full-range loudspeaker. If it can’t be bypassed then move it to as low a frequency as possible.

3) If possible, mute all pass bands of the full-range loudspeaker except for the LF. We want Tony align the subwoofer to the LF pass band, not the MF or HF. If this is not possible a band pass filter can be used later on the measurement data.

4) At the selected mic location, measure the impulse response (IR) of the subwoofer alone and then of the full-range system alone.

5) If only the LF pass band of the full-range loudspeaker is operating skip this step. If the MF, HF, etc. are also operating then apply a band pass filter, about 1 octave wide, to both IR measurements. In SysTune I use the 125 Hz band pass filter.

6) Zoom in on the magnitude of the band-limited IRs. One should now be able to see the initial arrival of the energy from the subwoofer and the LF pass band of the full-range loudspeaker.

7) Delay the loudspeaker with the earlier arrival by the required amount to synchronize (time align) them.

8) Apply the low pass filter to the subwoofer and the high pass filter to the full-range loudspeaker and measure the combined response.

If there is not good summation (i.e. there is some cancellation within the crossover region) then there is a problem with the low pass and/or high pass filters that are being used. Do not change the delay time. This will not fix the problem. It will only misalign the system in time. Change the crossover filters to get good summation in the frequency domain.

When asking a question about time, always look for the answer in the time domain, not the frequency domain.

From <https://www.facebook.com/groups/733449990043427/?ref=nf_target&fref=nf>;
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 January 2019 at 11:10pm



[QUOTE=toastyghost]That technicians setup looks to me like they tried to measure indoors, or changed the reference delay between measurements. It's not good, anyways, in short.

YES, CANT USE IT, AND THANKS FOR THE TIPS
these are unfiltered hog and es18 






Edited by king david - 21 January 2019 at 11:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2019 at 4:06am
Ok this suggests a polarity flip on the Hogs and delaying them to the ES18, because the Hogs have the gentler slope.

However I don’t tend to use REW for this task, so I’m not sure if the reference delay is the same for both measurements. It looks like it is, but they also both start at negative time offsets.

Have you already used up a 30 day trial of SMAART or SysTune?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2019 at 10:18am
Originally posted by king david king david wrote:

i basically found easier to flatten the response by crossing them at 65hz LR 48db octave
You have your answer:
Originally posted by king david king david wrote:


Ouch
How do you want to put them together?Ouch
You know that under 75hz time integration of the sound is not important. Sounds are or parts of the kick or just basslines. There are no harmonic parts of the higher notes. That makes it pointless to time-delay them on impulse responses. Just on crossover frequency.
Honestly well made setup with hogs + kicks plays it this way: kick is always played separately not affecting hogs at all during initial fast part.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote king david Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2019 at 10:43am
Well i am just doing what toastyghost suggested...time aligned them using tweeter as reference and started to put filters.
are You suggesting to avoid overlaps and have steep 24db crossover or even 48?


Edited by king david - 22 January 2019 at 10:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2019 at 11:02am
Yes avoid overlaps.
If you play them separately after puting filters time align them. If you try them together: first time align them than put filters than time align and repeat.
How exactly did you time align them? On those impulses?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2019 at 1:49pm
Sorry gen0me but you’re flat wrong on this one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2019 at 3:03pm
Where?
You cant make those impulses cover themselves. Other way you can make 75hz (on acoustic crossover) cover itself on both boxes. And have in mind that those boxes group delay mountains are going totally crazy around.


Edited by gen0me - 22 January 2019 at 3:19pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 January 2019 at 4:07pm
You’re not asking for the entire impulse to overlap.

Have you ever aligned a real system? Just curious.

The slopes without filters are almost 180 degrees out and tangents do not match. If one is polarity flipped, they will overlap for a part of the traces. You then delay the gentler slope to make the tangents match as much as possible through one octave either side of the intended acoustic crossover frequency.

It is best to do this with filters in place, but with subs and most measurement tools there is insufficient data to get good measurements especially near any kind of boundary. Going this way at least gets in the ballpark. You then apply your filters, re measure and compare, and adjust further if necessary.

The mic and reference delay should remain stationary for the entire process. So should cabinets.
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