Speakerplans.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > General > Amp Forum
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - measured:lab 13000 vs proline 3000
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

measured:lab 13000 vs proline 3000

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 7>
Author
Message
airbell View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 11 June 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 284
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airbell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: measured:lab 13000 vs proline 3000
    Posted: 29 December 2011 at 7:58pm
Hello,

i wanted to share some interesting measurements
a colleague and me did yesterday.
we used a konstantan-wire to simulate 2x4ohm resistors.
it keeps pretty well its resistance constant even at high temperatures,
and we cooled it with oil.
we measured only sinus, coz we are sure the lab does its 13000watt burst,
also the pc the oscilloscope was connected with was too slow to follow.

we measured 30hz, 50hz, 1khz and 16khz.
results for 50hz were

proline:          2x1850watt sinus @ 4ohm
lab gruppen:  2x1764watt sinus @ 4ohm (after ~1second)


now the interesting part:
power consumption:

proline 3000: 5000watt, 6500VA

lab gruppen 13000: 4000watt, 6000VA

peaks of power consumption were higher, but we measured just before clipping.
at the end the fuse of the proline came and the power switch at the front panel
has broken.
even if both amps had limiters, it was possible to get a very unnice looking
curve without hitting the input level too high.

this measurements are no 100%precise laboratory results,
but we tried hard to get as good results as possible.


now i was wondering a lot about the power consumption...
if you caltulate with the effective power (watts)
it all makes sense, the proline has a good efficience of
2x1850watt / 5000watt =0,74 =74%
and the lab gruppen
2x1764watt / 4000watt =0,882 = 88,2%.

but actually, if you consider how much you can get out of
an 16a fuse or a generator, you have always
to calculate with the appearing power (VA).

VA of both amps was almost the same.
and thats what suprised me a lot.

no question the lab gruppen wins in generel, less weight,
more peak power, so will do actually in any case louder than
the proline, but if its about powerconsumption in VA
they are almost the same for the same output,
and i would have never expect that.

best regards


Edited by airbell - 29 December 2011 at 8:57pm
Back to Top
andyamp View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 21 July 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2115
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andyamp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2011 at 8:33pm
how did you test the power consumption?
a wise man changes his mind a fool does not.
http://www.matrixamplification.com/
Back to Top
airbell View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 11 June 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 284
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airbell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 December 2011 at 8:54pm
the guy i did the test with had a device for it.
we put it directly before 230V ac input of the amps.
if you want to know which exactly i
have to ask him for the brand and type again, but it is a pretty good one!

only thing i may add is that the voltage dropped down to 217V during the test.



Edited by airbell - 29 December 2011 at 9:44pm
Back to Top
levyte357 View Drop Down
The 10,000 Points Club
The 10,000 Points Club


Joined: 10 May 2004
Location: UK, London
Status: Offline
Points: 11743
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2011 at 11:19am
Originally posted by airbell airbell wrote:


no question the lab gruppen wins in generel, less weight,


Why do you say that?

The LabG spec says 4400wpc @ 4 ohm stereo. Confused

I'd be pretty p*ssed off if my sub amp on bench could only muster approx 1800W per channel, as opposed to published spec of approx 4kwpc @ 4 ohms. Dead

But then, I suppose many "lie weight" manufacturers are doing this very thing... LOL
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".
Back to Top
MarjanM View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 10 February 2005
Location: Macedonia
Status: Offline
Points: 7810
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2011 at 11:34am
How did you measured the output? Did you just took the output voltage and then used the 4 ohm load to calculate it?
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713
Back to Top
csg View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc


Joined: 17 September 2007
Location: bedford
Status: Offline
Points: 6086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote csg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2011 at 11:36am
With respect, this is starting to sound like a stuck record.

As everybody knows, the lab gruppen is designed to deliver high dynamic peaks of power, as is required for any music programme containing any kind of dynamic range

even highly compressed forms of music ( drum and bass etc) tend to have a dynamic range of 6db, which is more than adequate for the lab to deliver its published specs

I realise that your requirements for power are somewhat more demanding than is the norm, however you must realise that large manufacturers like lab have to build amps designed to work optimally in their target market - in this case the pro end of the touring and installation market. Unfortunately, the roots / sound system sector is not where they are aiming this kind of amplifier.


with the aim of "putting my money where my mouth is" however, being a  long term lab user myself, and quite happy in my belief that labs can play bass as well as anything else i have ever used, im happy to offer a fully lab loaded drive rack to any sound system who wants to try it out, we me in attendance of course.
“The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better”
Back to Top
levyte357 View Drop Down
The 10,000 Points Club
The 10,000 Points Club


Joined: 10 May 2004
Location: UK, London
Status: Offline
Points: 11743
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2011 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

With respect, this is starting to sound like a stuck record.

As everybody knows, the lab gruppen is designed to deliver high dynamic peaks of power, as is required for any music programme containing any kind of dynamic range

even highly compressed forms of music ( drum and bass etc) tend to have a dynamic range of 6db, which is more than adequate for the lab to deliver its published specs

I realise that your requirements for power are somewhat more demanding than is the norm, however you must realise that large manufacturers like lab have to build amps designed to work optimally in their target market - in this case the pro end of the touring and installation market. Unfortunately, the roots / sound system sector is not where they are aiming this kind of amplifier.



I was really talking in comparison to something like QSC PL9, or PL6.0. Embarrassed

Both rapidly gaining reputation for doing what they say on the tin, even with 3-4 PD1850s per channel.

The old stigma about lightweights not being able to do roots sub, is now more about needing lighweight rated approx 1.5x -2x equivalent torroidial for 4 ohm load.



Edited by levyte357 - 30 December 2011 at 12:23pm
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".
Back to Top
paulus View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 14 December 2005
Location: SOUTH BIRMINGHA
Status: Offline
Points: 3181
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paulus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2011 at 12:32pm
Never heard the real lab,but the.copy 13000 I heard had 3 x fane 1500s a side and delivered without clipping and is 750 delivered
Inc shipping and import.duty!!!!yes it may pop but may be worth the risk!!
TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM
Back to Top
levyte357 View Drop Down
The 10,000 Points Club
The 10,000 Points Club


Joined: 10 May 2004
Location: UK, London
Status: Offline
Points: 11743
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2011 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by paulus paulus wrote:

Never heard the real lab,but the.copy 13000 I heard had 3 x fane 1500s a side and delivered without clipping and is 750 delivered
Inc shipping and import.duty!!!!yes it may pop but may be worth the risk!!


<Off Topic>, I'm sure Fane 1500s would also sound nice in my protos.. LOL
"Who am I? I'm the guy who does his job.. You must be the other guy".
Back to Top
paulus View Drop Down
Old Croc
Old Croc
Avatar

Joined: 14 December 2005
Location: SOUTH BIRMINGHA
Status: Offline
Points: 3181
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paulus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2011 at 12:53pm
Any pics of these beauts lev,?'
TRENDSETTER SOUND SYSTEM
Back to Top
airbell View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User


Joined: 11 June 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 284
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote airbell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2011 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

How did you measured the output? Did you just took the output voltage and then used the 4 ohm load to calculate it?


yes thats what we did.

we took the rms voltage ² divided by the resistance.

we also checked the resistance directly after measuring to check if the heat doesnt affect
it.

"even highly compressed forms of music ( drum and bass etc) tend to have a dynamic range of 6db, which is more than adequate for the lab to deliver its published specs"

sorry but that is not true.

you are right that even heavy drum and bass has a little dynamic range, but for some tracks its almost nothing.the difference between a sine and some drum n bass tracks is almost nothing.

i wrote that the lab is better because its obviously.thats why a second hand lab is still
several times more expensive than a brand new tamp 3000.
i think for 95%of the applications the high peak power of the lab gruppen makes really sense.
i tested only 1 lab gruppen for my 16x ciare 12sw horn loaded subs (which are similar to a half eaw bh760) and it was unbelievable how much the amp pushed the speakers while playing some nice rock and pop tracks.

but as soon as i played some nice drum n bass tracks the PAL turned it down, was still pretty nice but i noticed that the speakers could have take a lot more.

even with electro in generell or every track where you have a "longer" bassdrum the amp couldnt deliver its rated output, but something in between.

i think the measurements were correct, as its written on lab specs that the PAL limits the output power down not to hit the 16a circuit breaker.

actually its all about what you want to do, if you do touring with rock and pop bands, or techno, i think the lab gruppen is perfect. if you have 16speakers like me you take 2 of them, each on an own 16a circuit, and on the third you put your mid/high amps and maybe the mixing pult.

if you do often drum and bass and dubstep, or want to build a big soundystem for a huge cinema,
i would take several tamp3000s coz actually this amp is really underrated.
dont forget that the peak power of the tamp is also higher than the sine,
no question its not as much as the lab gruppenSmile




























Edited by airbell - 30 December 2011 at 1:54pm
Back to Top
Smiter View Drop Down
Registered User
Registered User
Avatar

Joined: 21 August 2010
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1160
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smiter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 December 2011 at 2:16pm
I'd say for the cost of one of those labs, you could buy quite a few of the prolines!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 7>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.