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Mini Scoops - Reality check

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toastyghost View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2017 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by B_Bender B_Bender wrote:

You can't even use a mic stand for the measurement?
Your test is totally invalid - laying the mic on the horn mouth.

Seriously?!?!?!


Er. That is actually how you measure bass, to avoid floor bounce.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B_Bender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2017 at 8:33pm
You can't even use a mic stand for the measurement?
Your test is totally invalid - laying the mic on the horn mouth.

Seriously?!?!?!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2017 at 7:09pm
Thank you, would have been nice.
I was just interested how big the difference is and how the lighter cone effects the tonality.
was amazing to hear this.

My friend who done the measurement also passed me a plot from a measurement we did years ago with a Hog Scoop loaded with an Oberton 18XB1500 but with magnet outside (!) as we cut the hole too small...

What that shows is not such a big difference in sub peak than the Mini has. the Hog Scoop went with ~35Hz the Minis with ~38Hz...

Btw. still open for input concerning the tuning ;)




Edited by Diaz - 24 January 2017 at 7:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote luton_soundman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2017 at 6:52pm
We could have told you that the 51 wouldnt have worked in this cab and saved you the trouble
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2017 at 6:46pm
So; we "tried" and made a "Measurement" for the MS18 mk2 with the Oberton 18NXB1600 and the Precision Devices PD.1851.
As it had -17° outside we decided not to make it outdoors.
And as you cant make a calibrated Measurement inside a Room we decided just to measure near-field in front of the Horn vs. in front of the Speaker.
In the Graphs below you see the green line for the Speaker and the red line for the horn measurement.

What was surprising was that the Oberton and the PD had nearly the exact same curve line at the measurements but the Sound and the efficiency was very different!

The Oberton 18NXB1600 sounded more harsh/rough and had a lot pressure.
The PD.1851 played more harmonic/melodic with more resolution but had less pressure.

Probably its because of the heavier cone of the Oberton but when we pushed it to xmax limit you cant hardly breath in front of the Mini and even with rubber feet mounted it was moving around the floor.
With the PD this effect was missing.

So to make a recommendation i would use the PD more for full range purpose in the MK2 (30-90) and the Oberton more for Infra purpose (30-65) when tonality does not count as much as pure SPL pressure.

What was also surprising was the fact that despite the simulation showed a peak around 45Hz the measurement has a peak at 38Hz and the Mini played well till 30Hz with a quite manageable excursion. We have been more worried about the occurring excursion around 55Hz as its more in the range which is hit by music more often.
You can see the white dot we drew on the cone to recognise the excursion.

Looking forward to your thoughts about tuning the MK2 and how we could curtail the excursion at 55Hz.


Graphs are NOT with equal SPL!
Green= in front of Speaker (should be seen ~ 3-5db up), Red= in front of Horn



Edited by Diaz - 24 January 2017 at 6:47pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2017 at 8:21pm
80hz yes.
Outside of, "rolling bass" type music the minis were wasted. They also to me all sound horrid over 90/100, but then I don't like a reflex over 100 either.
Maybe I was jaded, but the do in a barn encompassed a lot of different types of music.
Knock up a prototype and try, only a few quids worth of MDF. You may fine it suits you.
I've had a lot of minis, but I'm not really active nowadays. My angle on trying the link for myself is that there is a ton of new dance that now has real 40hz and I've never stood in front of a single cab that's not a reflex that doesn't lose it down low except the MS18 mk1 with the V1200 (run flat that is, no pre). I have never heard Shortman though. Still need kicks though, which brings us back to the PA argument, and round we go again.
 For me PA needs sub to 100ish in one cab and as pointed out no vocals in the kick range for live. Just like every touring system nowadays
Build and try, only way, I did, didn't like it, you may disagree............
PS, I secretly love your T18 pic still my favorite for 88/95 house music in a block of 4 with top two upside down :)

 I have an idea. next time there is a traditional sound check with scoopist system chuck some rock, 60's, RAP, techno and a load of other stuff through it and report back folks, the PA world might be wrong........wouldn't be the first time.

Regards and respect to all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 January 2017 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

Lol even when tony wilkes and other well respected professionals disagreed with that statement when he heard my system at gp. Go and hear ren a.p.s system. No idea why half of you k ow it all pa guys post in the scoop forum when you have never used a decent scoop in your life.

I have. I built the first MS18 mk1 on FSP and Mk2. I tested the V1200 in them. I've built MS18 mk3, loaded with 186 4r. They are still out there. I also trialed with Staip a Micro with 18 and the Cyclops with the first of the new breed of Fane Primes.
They are shit for PA. Too lazy, too much need for kick cabs as they sound horrid over 90hz.
They are wonderful for Reggae/Roots. It was simple for me to test, play Reggae, Play other music.
I even had two four way stacks of MS18 Mk2, ES18, MT130.  Utterly horrid on Pop, Disco and Rock. Guess what, played Reggae fine. [...]

 Back to original post:  Replacing the X1,s with minis. OK, may I suggest:

 http://hornplans.free.fr/ms46.html

 As much as they are no use to me, I want to try this combo in the summer, you see, the scoops, they are a drug :)

And yes there will be an exception all the above, someone will be using scoops for PA somewhere, that's lifeYin Yang

Thanks for the suggestion. What i see is that the MS46 comes with a smaller chamber and also smaller horn mouth than the MS18 MK2. The SPL graph also says that it has a higher tuning than the MK2. I also would need a Driver with a lower Qts. The Oberton NXB1600 has quite high Qts (~0.30) and therefore i dont think it would fit? Am I right?

To your MS18 Mk2, ES18 Stack; how you set the filters? Did the Minis play up till ~80 or did you HPF it lower? How did it in comparison to other Stacks like e.g. Hogs or full Scoops? Did you ever had the chance to compare in a dance? Could you keep up?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2017 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Didn't Tony have a bunch of historic installs with scoops on the sub? And bands on a Polar Bear is actually really good, the bigger issue with them I find is vocal range coming out of a 'kick' bin. If you had a full face foamed grille on those I think some engineers would just test em as a218


Astoria I think?  Different times, even the house music was 55 up and knowing Tony the kick section was probably as well designed as the rest and doing all the work.

Yeah, vocals through horn loaded cabs doing other frequencies, thought that was left behind with 15" W bins with tweeters, Marahall, Simms Watts.......

 Off subject, my hate of F218 is (unfairly) based on two or four in small clubs. Do they couple and go low enough in stacks of three? Is that the secret? Must try and hear in right environment, he is British after all..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2017 at 10:32pm
Should add that in that 4 way system I built I did a PA for a wedding in a barn. After we messed around and ran one stack with 2 x EX18bhp and omitted the minis. The rock/60's stuff that was so bad before came to life. Hence my (IMHO) conclusions
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wires Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2017 at 9:21pm
Astoria had an ASS system, End of the 90's but remember going in there and it being extremely weighty on the bass end lol. Were these scoops installed?
Sounded excellent, phat and clear, even though the headliner was mixed so loud I was deaf for a couple of days afterwards... still got the ticket stubs for that gig somewhere.

I think they replaced that system later on for something 'better', last band I saw there before it's closer didn't have the same experience although still good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2017 at 7:45pm
Didn't Tony have a bunch of historic installs with scoops on the sub? And bands on a Polar Bear is actually really good, the bigger issue with them I find is vocal range coming out of a 'kick' bin. If you had a full face foamed grille on those I think some engineers would just test em as a218
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickyburnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 January 2017 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

Lol even when tony wilkes and other well respected professionals disagreed with that statement when he heard my system at gp. Go and hear ren a.p.s system. No idea why half of you k ow it all pa guys post in the scoop forum when you have never used a decent scoop in your life.


I have. I built the first MS18 mk1 on FSP and Mk2. I tested the V1200 in them. I've built MS18 mk3, loaded with 186 4r. They are still out there. I also trialed with Staip a Micro with 18 and the Cyclops with the first of the new breed of Fane Primes.
They are shit for PA. Too lazy, too much need for kick cabs as they sound horrid over 90hz.
They are wonderful for Reggae/Roots. It was simple for me to test, play Reggae, Play other music.
I even had two four way stacks of MS18 Mk2, ES18, MT130.  Utterly horrid on Pop, Disco and Rock. Guess what, played Reggae fine. IF mini scoops or for that matter scoops were an option for across the board PA they would be used by touring companies, they could half the amp and mains power they needed to run their 2x18's, they don't.
I love scoopy things, I love your passion, but there are much better options for making a living with general PA. Even the most prominent scoopist on here uses 18 reflex for Disco Dave hires.

 Back to original post:  Replacing the X1,s with minis. OK, may I suggest:

 http://hornplans.free.fr/ms46.html

 As much as they are no use to me, I want to try this combo in the summer, you see, the scoops, they are a drug :)

And yes there will be an exception all the above, someone will be using scoops for PA somewhere, that's lifeYin Yang
It's everything, not everythink!
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