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Mini Scoops - Reality check

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Diaz View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 January 2017 at 5:39pm
Dear Forum we need your help!

We run a System in Salzburg Austria since 2002, changed it a few times and been experimenting with Speakers and cabinets (had/tried/built EV T18, EV Elliminator, Cubo Subs, Hog Scoops, Lambda Labs Horns, Föön Horns etc.).

ATM we run 4x Funktion One f118 replicas with Oberton NXB1200 (on 2x Crest CA12) doing a great job
and 4x Mogale X1 with PD.1851 (on 1x QSC PL380)

We recently decided to make a complete rebuild of the infra/ bass Section as we've not been happy with the missing physical Effect (Resonator Sound) of the X1 and want to change things.
Our main problem keeping us from changing to bigger cabinets is truck/transportation space so the alternative should not be much bigger than the X1.
We always loved the physical Pressure of Scoops and been searching for this effect but dont want to loose the precision of hearing every tone of the music.

Now the Mini Scoops come in.
I had the chance to hear 4 Shortman Minis loaded with 18Sound LW 2400 at 2016 Seasplash Festival and was quite impressed but didn't had the possibility for a comparison. On first sight it sounded "precise" as a Reflex Cab and also had this typical psychoacoustic Scoop Boom (slow roll off/ out swing effect [sorry my english]).
As there are no Shortman Mini Scoop Plans available we built a Staiper MS-18MKII Prototype and loaded it with the Oberton NXB1600 (get them very cheap).
In comparison with the X1 it had less depth but more spl + the Scoop boom effect described above. We also saw that "famous" 50Hz excursion Problem.
But anyhow the Mins Scoop have been definitely louder than the X1 but as the design is more a Reflex cab usable up till 80hz i thought about wasting energy as the f118 are kickfills with a really broad frequency range to play at.
Above the X1 (35-65) we used them from 70-120.

Now the Question is, could the Staiper MS18-MKII ever keep up with any full size Scoop in the range between 35-65?
I read a lot in the Forum about Minis keeping up with full size scoops but in lack of the possibility of a real world comparison i ask for this reality check of Mini-Users.
So what you think? Am i wasting my time with that kind of cabinet for Infra-Bass purposes or could a good +6db boost at 40hz and a little stacking effect of 4 Minis blow some full Scoops out of the water?
Or would you suggest something else for the infra range that could keep up with Hogs/full Scoops?

Thank you very much!


Edited by Diaz - 06 January 2017 at 12:43pm
Stereofreezed Soundsystem rebuilding Pics: https://www.facebook.com/STEREOFREEZED/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1336346346387987
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cookie-dj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2017 at 6:00pm
I have MS46 mini scoops and I can say that they are in-between reflex and scoop in sound.

21" mini scoop vs 18" full scoop is often discussed here.
The proper scoop boys will be better informed
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Diaz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2017 at 8:25pm
Hey cookie-dj thanks for your fast answer.
What do you have your MS46 loaded with?
How about keeping up with Full Scoops and how do you eq them?


Edited by Diaz - 06 January 2017 at 11:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cookie-dj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2017 at 8:28pm
Mine are loaded with Oberton 18XB700. Full scoops play louder but I prefer the mini scoop sound over full scoop sound. Thats just my personal preference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sypa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2017 at 8:33pm
M8 are you talking about the seasplash sound? Who told you they were shortmans,i highly doubt that. Probably the staiper plan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JR.junior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 8:36am
Originally posted by cookie-dj cookie-dj wrote:

..full scoops play louder.


Sure they do, they are horns!
Support the scoop technology, larger mouth plays louder!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote luton_soundman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 10:38am
Yes full scoops are better everyone sell me your shortman minis and buy big full scoops
Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.
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Diaz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 11:46am
Originally posted by Sypa Sypa wrote:

M8 are you talking about the seasplash sound? Who told you they were shortmans,i highly doubt that. Probably the staiper plan.


The guy who runs the system told me that they are Shortman Minis but he claims not to have the Plans. Nothing more to say Wink. In the end it was not about Shortman or not as it was the first time i heard Minis in real world and on two different floors. One Club Floor playing Dubstep and the other Stage was a Live Stage. On both Stages they used the same Minis and on both i was quite impressed especially as they are quite small. They Sounded precise and powerful and had the Scoop grunt.

Edited by Diaz - 06 January 2017 at 11:54am
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Diaz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 11:52am
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

Yes full scoops are better everyone sell me your shortman minis and buy big full scoops

Does that mean that my real question should be "could a Staiper MS18-MK2 Oberton NXB1600 loaded keep up with a Shorman Mini", right?

You seem quite convinced that Shortman Minis are louder than Full Scoops. What makes you so sure?
I also read statements from Staiper who seems thinking quite the same way about his Minis.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote luton_soundman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 11:57am
Ive owned or used most top performing scoops going. Its not just about the loudness. Its the type of sound and frequency it plays ticks my box.
Sound Hire/Sales new/used equipment.
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Diaz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by JR.junior JR.junior wrote:

Originally posted by cookie-dj cookie-dj wrote:

..full scoops play louder.


Sure they do, they are horns!

So you think i should go for a small kind of horn loaded cabinet? What you suggest how to get that.
With my Oberton 18 NXB1600 im quite constricted to large chamber designs.
With a Qts of 0.30, a BL of 29.6, a "real" Xmax of 10mm (+Hg/4 = 13,5)  and a Vd of 15,633
they come as real beast Drivers for large Chambers.
I know that it's a lot about the size of the sound emitting area but with the f118 im nearly as high as a full scoop with e.g. a G-Sub on Top. So if the Scoop in this Example is used from 30-80Hz and the G-Sub above i thought i can reduce the size of the sub cabinet by using a smaller bandwidth e.g. 30-65 with a design that’s more built to do that area.
I know it's also a question about the degree of efficiency of the cabinet/design.
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Diaz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Diaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2017 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by luton_soundman luton_soundman wrote:

Ive owned or used most top performing scoops going. Its not just about the loudness. Its the type of sound and frequency it plays ticks my box.


Thank you for this statement. What do you personally suggest to go after?
JR.junior suggested some more horn loaded design but as i wrote space is a question.
So i think small horn designs wont go deep as e.g. the X1 or a simple Reflex do?

It seems it's not possible to produce SPL at lets say 30Hz with a small Cabinet thats as loud as a full Scoop, right?
I would always need 1,5 times more cabinets to keep up with then. Like with X1 and Hogs etc.

Is it really that banal that its all about a lack of efficiency of the cabinet and a lack of sound emitting area that makes it impossible to produce SPL with little Boxes?


Edited by Diaz - 06 January 2017 at 12:28pm
Stereofreezed Soundsystem rebuilding Pics: https://www.facebook.com/STEREOFREEZED/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1336346346387987
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