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Mini Sound System - 12'' scoop vs.?

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jan.i.am View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jan.i.am Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2020 at 10:24am
Originally posted by APW APW wrote:

The driver is as stated on the plot (Old EM12-150) the plots for all the old emi scoops are with the plans in the old Eminence book that’s from the late 80s/early and is almost identical to the plan in the Fane book from the late 70s/early 80s…. it’s a very old design!!

…. Plus it doesn’t matter what driver you put in this design the horn length it way too short.


Ok thank you. Pretty sure I won't go with this old design;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SubMeditation Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2020 at 10:35am
The driver is not the reason for the fast drop, its the horn length. So if you just scale down an 18“ scoop you‘ll reduce the horn length aswell, resultung in an higher cutoff. Still you can squeze out a few hz with a bigger chamber, but it will only do a few hz though. So you‘ll need at least the path length of a normal scoop, but be aware that one normal scoop also drops quick after 38hz - only 4 reach lowe keys with presence. 
So maybe a mini scoop wich looks like a small scoop but works more like a reflex bin is best for you? If you don‘t plan to build 4-6 cabs and want to hit 33hz that would maybe be a better option. 
But you can still modell an own scoop with hornresp, its great fun to learn it ;) i just want to warn you of just scaling down as that changes the whole charactaristics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 December 2020 at 11:17am
I remember someone posting about a successful 15" paraflex build. It was in a thread about something else, but the poster was very happy and reported good extensuon down to 30 hz.

I also remember seeing a double 8" scoop made by some swedish guy on the web......

Maybe a 15" scoop with 15DS115 would be the ticket to get low extension with a single scoop.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bob4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 January 2021 at 3:31am
Found the thread in the new projects section, 
in case you missed it, paraflex altcon 15 build with B&C 15ds115.
Check out the size and outout compared to a full scoop Shocked
http://forum.speakerplans.com/2x10-vented-horn-idea_topic100997_page8.html
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SubMeditation View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SubMeditation Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2021 at 1:56am
Woo, that looks wired, like an 6th order bandpass box - tapped horn hybrid..? Or why there is a big chamber near sourround the back of the speaker, a lot bigger than the opening?
But  the messurements look great! So can someone explain how it works for better understanding? The hornlengh is definatly to short for 30hz, so the chamber size tunes it down?
...still the output at 33hz is a not like i would tune it, but an adaption of that principe could be worth a try.


Edited by SubMeditation - 31 January 2021 at 2:01am
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Noud View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Noud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2021 at 9:43am
Its a serie tuned 6th order band pass with a additional resonator parallel tuned.
there are a lot more different designs you can find them on Facebook High Order Quarterwave Society (DIY Paraflex & Super Planar dev community).

Take a look and enjoy! 
I really like the sound, the size to spl en bandwidth ratio.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 February 2021 at 4:03pm
Personally think 12" Scoop would be complete waste of time.
Think the same of 15" Scoops.

If you want huge bang in small cab:

1. Build Staiper MS18 MiniScoop/Mykey Rhino 18" Scoop
2. Buy used Shortman Mini Scoops
3. Load them with Void V18-1000 or PD1850 or PD1851.
4. Power them with proven quality amplifier, not cheap chinese sh*t.


Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.
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jan.i.am View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jan.i.am Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 March 2021 at 9:16am
Yes, that's exactly what I'm gonna do. I'm building a mini scoop.

I already designed one based on the Staiper MS-18 MK3. Today I go to the sawmill to buy the plywood and then I start building it.
I still don't know which driver I'm gonna choose.. I have to do some more simulations.

I will keep this thread updated.
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SubMeditation View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SubMeditation Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 March 2021 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Noud Noud wrote:

Its a serie tuned 6th order band pass with a additional resonator parallel tuned.
there are a lot more different designs you can find them on Facebook High Order Quarterwave Society (DIY Paraflex & Super Planar dev community).

Thanks for the tipp! Looked through it and red the thread on diy audio + made some simulations to design a 10" which can play to 32hz and have the additional spl that is normaly in the kick area tuned down to 80-90hz - still working on a good folding that keeps the barycentre low because we want to carry it around on bicycle trailers. Comparasion measurements with 3-4 other cabs with the same 10" driver coming this summer ;) I'm really curious how it proforms in the real world against the other drivers since the facebook group and the +100 pages diy audio thread are quite poor on good (not taken with the smartphone) real world messurments...



Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Personally think 12" Scoop would be complete waste of time.
Think the same of 15" Scoops.

If you want huge bang in small cab:

1. Build Staiper MS18 MiniScoop/Mykey Rhino 18" Scoop
2. Buy used Shortman Mini Scoops
3. Load them with Void V18-1000 or PD1850 or PD1851.
4. Power them with proven quality amplifier, not cheap chinese sh*t.

If you are a commercial dj touring with a van - you're right.
But if the want to carry around your speaker on a bicycle, listening while riding, beeing able to carry it alone and use it as your home sub aswell, a 12"/10" scoop could still have a reason as you can make it smaler=lighter than an 90x90x60 mini scoop - for sure not close with the same output/efficiency but still enough to fill city streets - and if everybody of your friends gots one fun gets even bigger if you meet up ;) (talking from my experience on bike demonstrations with one 10" car audio sub driver that i got for 35€ on ebay screwed in a tapped horn and driven from a 500w (300w real output) chinese amp for 10€ (still had to invest 30€ in two step up converters to run it from 12v batteries;)) 


Originally posted by jan.i.am jan.i.am wrote:

Yes, that's exactly what I'm gonna do. I'm building a mini scoop.

I already designed one based on the Staiper MS-18 MK3. Today I go to the sawmill to buy the plywood and then I start building it.
I still don't know which driver I'm gonna choose.. I have to do some more simulations.

I will keep this thread updated.

Great! Looking forward for your modifications on the designs and further updates! :)





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JBK View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JBK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 March 2021 at 4:02pm
Greetings,
I think the remarks saying "10"/12" scoop is a bad idea" are not regarding the general concept of having a compact sub, rather that the scoop design isn't suited for smaller drivers/cabs.
Also, scoops are usually made to be played in stacks, one scoop alone won't drop as low as several (typically group of 4) due to the horn loading.
I'd rather look at bass reflex or ported horn designs for smaller cabs. If it's just fo looks you can make a BR look somewhat a scoop.
For your aim this cab http://hornplans.free.fr/mth30.html seems adequate, I'v never heard it personnaly but heard quite good reviews on it (people are impressed on the output vs the size of the cab)



Edited by JBK - 03 March 2021 at 4:04pm
https://www.facebook.com/rootikalvibeshifi

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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKB8xPHqsVywM2EgtOaMjdgfIUf_-kFdV
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SubMeditation View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SubMeditation Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 March 2021 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by JBK JBK wrote:

Greetings,
I think the remarks saying "10"/12" scoop is a bad idea" are not regarding the general concept of having a compact sub, rather that the scoop design isn't suited for smaller drivers/cabs.
Also, scoops are usually made to be played in stacks, one scoop alone won't drop as low as several (typically group of 4) due to the horn loading.
I'd rather look at bass reflex or ported horn designs for smaller cabs. If it's just fo looks you can make a BR look somewhat a scoop.
For your aim this cab http://hornplans.free.fr/mth30.html seems adequate, I'v never heard it personnaly but heard quite good reviews on it (people are impressed on the output vs the size of the cab)


True dat, you cant have the quarter sinewave effect with on scoop. Personally i'm preferring tapped horns against scoops on small sized boxes of that reason as well from the theory, but i haven't tested them 1 to 1 jet. Testing an 12" BR vs same sized 10" scoop/tapped horn designs is also something im looking forward to test. Still i felt like adding some points to the discussion of small sized boxes (not specially scoops) here: From my comparison an adam sub 10 (BR box), an 15" br box and an 10" and 6,5" tapped horn i can say that the smaller the driver the least room resonance & more feeling (vibration) just in front of the speaker you get on same levels. Also i felt this was the case on the tapped horn vs the BR. So if home use in a flat with neighbors  is a factor, you could have more of the soundsystem feeling (considering the same volume in the neighbors flat) with small drivers sitting/standing right in front of them, than with a BR box or bigger drivers - for sure something not many people will need though ;)

I didn't listened to the mth30 but from my expirence with tapped horns that run to 38hz i felt that if you want to enjoy modern steppa music to the fullest you'll have some of the lowest notes missing in maybe every 4rd song or so - still you can enjoy it a lot and most people won't notice that the bass stops because the box won't play it in that moments, but if you know it, and know how the song is supposed to sound you'll avoid playing this songs - at lest for me ;) The MTH30 cuts at 50hz, while that makes it enormous efficient, as you mention, i won't get happy with it i guess - but it depends on the music you play and if you can compromise on low bass notes in exchange of a lot more SPL.
 


Edited by SubMeditation - 03 March 2021 at 9:10pm
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