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Modding 186 Horn

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levyte357- View Drop Down
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    Posted: 31 January 2022 at 9:53am
Few friends asked if 186 Horn could be modded, to have f3 at 45hz, within cab that is 636mm Wide, 1220mm H, upto 800mm D.

I suggested Martin WSX, but they state these are sub optimal in smaller venues.

They intend to use PD1851, V18-1000, or other very decent driver.


Edited by levyte357- - 31 January 2022 at 9:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2022 at 10:07am
Why would they think the 186 will work in the venue and the WSX not? Modding the 186 for a lower f3 will basically make it a different cab (you need more hornlength basically).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2022 at 10:41am
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

Why would they think the 186 will work in the venue and the WSX not? Modding the 186 for a lower f3 will basically make it a different cab (you need more hornlength basically).


TBH, I've personally heard WSX in smaller venues, (typically 300-500 ppl), and has been mentioned on here over the years, if you don't lay those subs flat, you end up with mosf of the sub outside of the building.

Shame, as WSX is one of  my fav cabs of all time, Folded Horn, that can do decent 45hz in pairs.

Heard number of 21" FLH, that fail to do this, in stack of 4x.


Edited by levyte357- - 31 January 2022 at 10:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Esc4pe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2022 at 10:51am
Aren’t you going to have the same fate using 186 in a small room as the WSX? 

I’m sure I did see a plan once on here that basically looked like an elongated 186/1850 but it would definitely be a huge amount bigger than the original 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2022 at 11:14am
Originally posted by Esc4pe Esc4pe wrote:

Aren’t you going to have the same fate using 186 in a small room as the WSX? 

I’m sure I did see a plan once on here that basically looked like an elongated 186/1850 but it would definitely be a huge amount bigger than the original 


I've heard both 186/1850 Horns, in numerous venues, and they exhibited no such problems.

One can assume, this is to do with exceptional horn length, as I've been told, lab horn exhibits similar characteristic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2022 at 11:24am
This is the similar 18sound FLH.

A good starting point to mod to 1220mm height, 636mm width cab



Edited by levyte357- - 31 January 2022 at 3:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Esc4pe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2022 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Originally posted by Esc4pe Esc4pe wrote:

Aren’t you going to have the same fate using 186 in a small room as the WSX? 

I’m sure I did see a plan once on here that basically looked like an elongated 186/1850 but it would definitely be a huge amount bigger than the original 


I've heard both 186/1850 Horns, in numerous venues, and they exhibited no such problems.

One can assume, this is to do with exceptional horn length, as I've been told, lab horn exhibits similar characteristic.

The only thing I don’t get from that is using multiple 186/1850 would increase the horn length to that of how ever many WSX/Labs? 

My experience with FLH in small rooms (bear in mind in my line of things testing & mic’ing up rooms etc is a foreign concept LOL) is simply some small rooms have acoustic issues some don’t! I have heard WSX stack in a tiny room before and it sounded bang on how it should do, I have also heard 8+ 1850s sound nowhere near how they should in a similar sized room! 

I’m All for this topic an SBH or bigger sized 186/1850 would defo be something I would consider using as SBH never seemed to do it for me unless in monstrous stacks with drivers soaking up a lot of power!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote levyte357- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2022 at 3:38pm
I'd like to see how 186 Horn, with approx 6.5ft horn length, compares to WSX.

Prefer 186 Horn, as it has larger chamber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2022 at 4:07pm
I don't see why a 'longer path' 186 would not encounter the same problem you had with the WSX.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2022 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

I don't see why a 'longer path' 186 would not encounter the same problem you had with the WSX.


This ‘problem’ is not qualified by anyone that I’ve seen, and trust me - I’ve looked. There’s a ton of conjecture reported as irrefutable fact, absolutely nothing that remotely resembles a scientific, repeatable, and controlled test. Let alone analysis of the results to come up with analytical parameters to predict the behavior of the supposed ‘bass in the car park’ effect.

I’ve already looked into the effect of path length, compression ratio, and other factors affecting the radiation impedance in the free field, plus dispersion (the same below 100 Hz for reflex and symmetrical horn mouths of the same frontal area, for arrays of up to 16 boxes free-field), and the possibility that somehow the inverse distance law is violated (it isn’t).

Stacking more horns also does not increase the effective horn length. You change the mouth area, and mouth aspect ratio. If the latter shifts to >1:4 in either direction, loading is lost and directivity becomes harder to predict.

That means tall, narrow stacks such as 1 wide by 3 high are the most problematic arrangementss for any exponential or hyperbolic-exponential front loaded horn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitske96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 January 2022 at 8:04pm
@toasty

It sure looks like it indeed. From the story told, i would day the space is to small for those longer wavelengths the wsx can produce. 186 does not and the 'problem' does not occur.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 February 2022 at 9:29am
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

@toasty

It sure looks like it indeed. From the story told, i would day the space is to small for those longer wavelengths the wsx can produce. 186 does not and the 'problem' does not occur.




That’s pretty much the case for any small venue, regardless of subwoofer type. The waves simply don’t ‘see’ the walls.

There are effects caused by the rigidity and distance to nearby boundaries on the acoustic impedance of the horn, but these generally only seem to produce unwanted ripple in the power response, rather than magically transforming the horn into a magic device that teleports its output to the outside of the building.

It could however be that effect that creates an uneven response, both inside and outside the venue, and the auditory masking or unmasking makes it feel more pronounced that many small buildings pretty much don't exist at low notes.

Unfortunately since so few of the people who observe this phenomenon seem to take measurements or do controlled testing - plonk four horn subs, measure response inside and out at various positions, swap for four reflex subs of the same volume and size, repeat - it's all speculation.

The LABhorn isn’t exceptional in its length either. It’s just the standard 1/4 lambda for the intended cutoff frequency. In fact, it’s a little shorter than the basic maths suggested since a bit of response ripple was accepted to achieve the truck pack dimensions while keeping the throat expansion as intended.

If you want strong 45 Hz performance, then you can get away with a much shorter horn and load it up with power density. Look at Scott Hinson of DIYRM’s dual 18” for an example of that.

‘Modding’ a design that’s already out there is asking for trouble unless you’re going to determine the original parameters for the horn expansion, and tweak the formulae before refolding. At the very least, it’ll need a good drawing to track the volume correctly around bends and calculate the acoustic parameters for those.

Far easier to just pick your desired values for cutoff and for T, plug it into the Salmon equations, calculate the chamber for reactance annulling, and draw out the geometry in lots of equal length segments in CAD to generate the folding.

Edited by toastyghost - 01 February 2022 at 9:42am
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