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my first pa project, feedback welcome
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lisette View Drop Down
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Joined: 26 October 2019
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Points: 10 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lisette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: my first pa project, feedback welcome
    Posted: 26 October 2019 at 5:03pm
hello,

i have finally decided to build my own pa system for techno and edm...
my currently planned setup is the following:

2 X MidTops, each with:

2 X 10" Eminence Kappa Pro 10A (horn loaded similar to mt102)
1 X 1" BMS 4552ND-8 (B&C ME 45 horn)

1 X Subwoofer
1 X 18" RCF LF18G401 in MHB-4818 bin

any thoughts or improvements on this setup? later i would maybe add 2 more tops and/ or a second woofer.

i want to use a "Behringer DCX2496 Ultra-Drive Pro" as dsp.

i don't have a clue about amping, maybe someone has a few tips ?! :)
currently looking at:
t.amp TA2400 MK-X for the kappas
t.amp e-400 for the bms
t.amp e-1500 for the woofer

thanks for any feedback :)

cheers, lisette
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Chris Grimshaw View Drop Down
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Joined: 10 September 2018
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Points: 281 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris Grimshaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2019 at 9:47am
How loud do you want to do?

Instinctively, 1x 18" sub might not cut it for anything larger than a house party for those genres.

Chris
Quality sound from Sheffield
www.grimshawaudio.com
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Tonskulus View Drop Down
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Joined: 15 September 2017
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Points: 425 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonskulus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2019 at 9:54am
That w-bin is pretty bulky and big.  How about tapped horns like Tham18, TH18 or similar?  These gives the most SPL vs. enclosure size and has decent sound quality too.
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TMH Music View Drop Down
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Points: 637 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TMH Music Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2019 at 7:37pm
Think I’d be tempted to stick with reflex for the mid/tops, much more scalable. Good call on the tapped horn for the bass.
Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious
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boots-hifi View Drop Down
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Points: 2463 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boots-hifi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 October 2019 at 7:56pm
If you're set on t. Amps proline 3000 for bass and a t. Amp 4 1300 for mid/tops. Also id try and stay reflex all the way, it will save many complications with time alignment etc. Plenty of great designs online from manufacturers websites like b&c, Fane and BMS or Rogs x12 design. Other than that have a play about with WinISD. Ive just built some reflex 18s loaded with PD186s and they sound great with techno! I can email you the design if you pm me. 
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JonB67 View Drop Down
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Joined: 22 April 2016
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Points: 1376 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2019 at 9:16am
In my humble opinion you  either have too much top or not enough bass. 

If your tops are adequate rather than overkill you need at least one more 18 inch subs if horn loaded and possibly more if reflex (2 doubles?)

If you don't need that much kit,  perhaps you could manage with smaller tops. 

Not a criticism as it entirely depends on what your longer term plans are,  what venues and capacities you play to. 

If you are happy lugging the weight,  I'd buy second hand pro quality amps rather than cheap lightweights  especially for bass.  You need to search the archives to know what to look for. There are loads of threads on it. 
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toastyghost View Drop Down
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Points: 10919 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2019 at 10:09am
Originally posted by boots-hifi boots-hifi wrote:

If you're set on t. Amps proline 3000 for bass and a t. Amp 4 1300 for mid/tops. Also id try and stay reflex all the way, it will save many complications with time alignment etc. Plenty of great designs online from manufacturers websites like b&c, Fane and BMS or Rogs x12 design. Other than that have a play about with WinISD. Ive just built some reflex 18s loaded with PD186s and they sound great with techno! I can email you the design if you pm me. 


I’m really not too sure where this myth that reflex is ‘easier’ to time align stems from. If you’re thinking that a horn has inherently more delay because it has to ‘get through the horn from the driver’ then that’s simply not true.

Regardless of loading type, it’s a fact that 80Hz for example, will be inherently ‘behind’ your mid tops and every system will need some form of delay, either physical or digital.
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VECTORDJ View Drop Down
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Points: 515 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VECTORDJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2019 at 11:12am
Need two w-bins a side for good sound. Years ago I made 8 w-bins for local Funk band Motor Booty Affair. Most of the time they used 4. Big shows 8. Real solid punch. Now they  use a small line array with a powered 18 small sub. Boring AM radio sound. 
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boots-hifi View Drop Down
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Points: 2463 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boots-hifi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2019 at 11:25am
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Originally posted by boots-hifi boots-hifi wrote:

If you're set on t. Amps proline 3000 for bass and a t. Amp 4 1300 for mid/tops. Also id try and stay reflex all the way, it will save many complications with time alignment etc. Plenty of great designs online from manufacturers websites like b&c, Fane and BMS or Rogs x12 design. Other than that have a play about with WinISD. Ive just built some reflex 18s loaded with PD186s and they sound great with techno! I can email you the design if you pm me. 


I’m really not too sure where this myth that reflex is ‘easier’ to time align stems from. If you’re thinking that a horn has inherently more delay because it has to ‘get through the horn from the driver’ then that’s simply not true.

Regardless of loading type, it’s a fact that 80Hz for example, will be inherently ‘behind’ your mid tops and every system will need some form of delay, either physical or digital.

Agreed Kyle. In my experience reflex are more forgiving, mixing cab types causes more issues, this is a 'first system' so id imagen the less complications the better. I dont know the OP or their depth of knowledge and they may well have the facility to time align their system. If i was starting out again, id be happy with something I could plug in and play. Just my two pence worth.
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Tonskulus View Drop Down
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Points: 425 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonskulus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 October 2019 at 12:27pm
From my experience about tapped horns and reflex, both requires time/phase alignment with tops at crossover freq for good results.  However, tapped horns may requre more EQ work to get it right. 

So yes, reflex is usually easier. Tapped horns just gives more SPL from the same enclosure size. Downside is narrower band width compared to direct radiator/reflex enclosures.
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lisette View Drop Down
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Points: 10 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lisette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 October 2019 at 11:22pm
thanks for the feedback! i will go ahead and build the tops while i rethink my bass setup...

i will order 
-4 10" Kappa Pro-10A
-2 1" BMS 4552ND-8
-2 1" B&C ME 45 horn
-1 Behringer DCX2496 Ultradrive Pro
-1 the t.amp TSA 4-1300

would 2 PD1850/2 in 1850 horn be enough bass? pa will probably end up in an underground techno club with tiny dancefloors (smallest floor ~10ppl, largest ~100ppl), maybe some small outdoor raves, depends on the sound quality... 

cheers lisette
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lisette View Drop Down
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Points: 10 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lisette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 November 2019 at 11:17pm
my midtop order arrived today. the bms spl is far beyond painful, the kappas add a nice punch. ill post some build pics once i start building, cheers lisette
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