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    Posted: 25 August 2015 at 2:31pm
Hello,

What do you guys think of the new Bose F1 system? 
Please leave the " Buy Other Sound Equipment " and all other nice Quote's behind.

The link :

F1 '' top '' speaker , 812 :

F1 ''bass '' speaker , F1 subwoofer:

Video about the F1:

Cheers


>>> *** edit:  I have station car and my crowd is about 300/400 dancing people , drive in stuff *** <<<


Edited by Seehnav - 30 August 2015 at 2:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2015 at 3:33pm
The concept is a line array in one box.

However, Line Array physics says that they will only offer the cylindrical wave front, which is the whole point of a line array, when the line array length is off the order of the wavelength it is trying to control.

It claims 100Hx40V deg, I presume in straight mode, and claims 132dB, again I assume in straight mode on axis. -3dB of 52Hz and 15.5KHz, so no highs, no lows, must be a ....

No other specs on what angles are achievable in J, C or reverse J (this sounds like a porn shoot), with or without sub. So a 12" to 600Hz in the mid top, then 8 x 2.5 drivers on an adjusting baffle. So any effect will only be from 600Hz and up, and the length of the "array" means it probably wont do much any way.

Mewh. If it sounds to your liking and nothing else for the money tempts you, then I 'm sure it is a very practical solution. It is light (25Kg sub, 21Kg Mid Top) and loudish (Sub "130 dB SPL (peak 6 dB CF)", Mid Top 132dB Peak) but without hearing one.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Seehnav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2015 at 6:19pm
I just like dimensions , very compact , but yet again is very expensive so i'm gonna look what else is on the market , with the same size and output... I'm think then better a QSC K12 and sub....


Thx for the reply MattStolton! 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 August 2015 at 9:12pm
I have heard and liked the k range from QSC. For the size and money very good. Many others seriously like the Yamaha/Nexo DSR and DSX range of active shizzle.

I used to be very up my own arse about badge loyalty, but TBH, it is whatever your ears like, and whatever offers the convenience that is important to you. Throw in your personal budget, and it is all about what you think. Some of us are about measured verified spec, as we stopped trusting our ears years ago, but again that is personal preference. Just have the self belief to not buy on brand name alone- fashion and badge should be reserved for hand bags.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LunchieTey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2015 at 10:05am
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

Line Array physics says that they will only offer the cylindrical wave front, which is the whole point of a line array, when the line array length is off the order of the wavelength it is trying to control.
Manufacturers use all kinds of methods to control horizontal and vertical dispersion. COntrol down to 600hz in a stand mount box is a lot better than the average horn that loses vertical directivity a full octave or more above that.
 
Also good luck making a full length array that you can lift with one hand on a pole. Normal pub venues with a roof height of 3m will have plenty of boundary effects and room modes below 600hz so trying to use a line array with control that low is pretty hard regardless.
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

It claims 100Hx40V deg, I presume in straight mode, and claims 132dB, again I assume in straight mode on axis. -3dB of 52Hz and 15.5KHz, so no highs, no lows, must be a ....
Spouting the typical fanboy bose garbage, 15.5k at -3db is on par with the vast majority of portable cabinets as most compression drivers are already dropping like a stone. Bigger drivers are dropping above 10khz in some cases. -10db at 20k as quoted by bose is pretty much line ball with everything. -3db at 52hz as you have highlighted is also not out of the ordinary for a 12" on a stick. Industry standard SRM450 is 55hz...

Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

 So any effect will only be from 600Hz and up, and the length of the "array" means it probably wont do much any way.
 
 
As I have already said, please bend the laws of physics for us? 600hz vertical control is pretty good and in a club will help with intelligibility for sure.
 
Plenty of glowing reviews online for these too by the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2015 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by LunchieTey LunchieTey wrote:

Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

Line Array physics says that they will only offer the cylindrical wave front, which is the whole point of a line array, when the line array length is off the order of the wavelength it is trying to control.
Manufacturers use all kinds of methods to control horizontal and vertical dispersion. COntrol down to 600hz in a stand mount box is a lot better than the average horn that loses vertical directivity a full octave or more above that.
 
Also good luck making a full length array that you can lift with one hand on a pole. Normal pub venues with a roof height of 3m will have plenty of boundary effects and room modes below 600hz so trying to use a line array with control that low is pretty hard regardless.
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

It claims 100Hx40V deg, I presume in straight mode, and claims 132dB, again I assume in straight mode on axis. -3dB of 52Hz and 15.5KHz, so no highs, no lows, must be a ....
Spouting the typical fanboy bose garbage, 15.5k at -3db is on par with the vast majority of portable cabinets as most compression drivers are already dropping like a stone. Bigger drivers are dropping above 10khz in some cases. -10db at 20k as quoted by bose is pretty much line ball with everything. -3db at 52hz as you have highlighted is also not out of the ordinary for a 12" on a stick. Industry standard SRM450 is 55hz...

Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

 So any effect will only be from 600Hz and up, and the length of the "array" means it probably wont do much any way.
 
 
As I have already said, please bend the laws of physics for us? 600hz vertical control is pretty good and in a club will help with intelligibility for sure.
 
Plenty of glowing reviews online for these too by the way.

Yeah, but, I plucked 600Hz out of the air as an example. There is no published data on what the frequency from which any claimed effect, actually occurs. Could be 2KHz for all I know, equally could be miraculous and 200Hz.

There are no published Polars, and no HxV for anything other than 100x40, which I assume is flat array, again, it doesn't say. It also doesn't quantify or qualify at what frequency the 100x40 is valid, or how valid (is it -6dB, or more or less?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote csg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2015 at 6:13pm
The technical sheet gives the 40 x 100 deg. with the "c" setting, with a crossover into the array drivers at 600Hz.

I suspect that these may well sound a lot better than we are expecting...i have always preferred the slightly dull boze top end to the shriek of overdriven typical DJ srm450s et al
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 August 2015 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by csg csg wrote:

I have always preferred the slightly dull boze top end to the shriek of overdriven typical DJ srm450s et al
I have to agree with you to some extent. Certainly as my hearing is only good to 15K anyway....Very Shreiky over driven Hf is never pleasent.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Conanski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 August 2015 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by Seehnav Seehnav wrote:

Hello,

What do you guys think of the new Bose F1 system? 
Please leave the " Buy Other Sound Equipment " and all other nice Quote's behind.


Why? This Bose still system doesn't deserve any more respect. This is yet another "me too" product for those that are..
1) Complete suckers for everything Bose.
2) Want a new line array type system because it's what all cool bands/DJs must have.

As usual this system is all too easy to pick apart. The low hanging fruit as usual is the beyond pathetic "sub" module.. a dual 10" reflex loaded box with 1000w on hand  that we're supposed to believe achieves 130db. Interestingly the QSC K12 a dual 12" bandpass design can't actually do that (the spec sheet say it does but they also say it's just a calculated maximum), so again Bose is full of shite.
Then there is the array, eight 2.25" fullrange drivers that somehow manage to match(SPL) what it takes 24 drivers to do in the L1 system? Just hold on a minute while I fall down on the floor laughing...

OK that done, line array science says the SPL generated for a curved array won't be the same as for a straight array.. all else being equal which it is in this case, because instead of pushing all that energy straight forward it's being dispersed into a much larger sound field. So again that max SPL spec is that for the straight config or one of the curved configs? And what about that horizontal coverage.. how well does that work when the lower/upper drivers are pulled back into a curve and shrowded by the side panels? And at what frequencies do you get that coverage. Bose would have you believe at all frequencies but line array science says otherwise, but these are facts.. we wouldn't want those to get in the way of a good ass raping would we.

Will the system do what it says...yeah sure it'll do something like that at moderate acoustic lounge levels but no way no how is this a rock band PA system.. maybe if you buy $30k worth and pile it all up but what kind of idiot does that?


Edited by Conanski - 29 August 2015 at 10:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2015 at 5:02am

Seehnav 

Registered User Posted: 25 August 2015 at 2:31pm
Please leave the " Buy Other Sound Equipment " and all other nice Quote's behind.

Dear Seehnav,

At the cost of transgressing the above,

Conanski's words make perfect sense as far as the F1 system is concerned.  How Bose manages to squeeze out those SPL figures out of that unit is a mystery to me. More importantly, you cannot multiply or upscale the F1 system.

If you want to go down the line array route,............ since it is now the flavor of the day, and assuming that you are a rental outfit, I suggest you look at the DB technologies DVA series, ie. the DVA T4, DVA T8 and the DVA T12. The advantage of this system is that you can keep adding numbers as time goes by, rather than being stuck with a system that has upscale limitations.

The T4, with 12 modules a side and 2 double 18 subs per side (DVA S20 / S30N) can handle a 1000 - 1200 people depending on the program material and the size of the arena. The T4 does not have RD net, the onboard hardware that is used to net work the modules, so the fancy jazz is out. The advantage of the T4 is that it is light at the hook point. 12 modules weigh just 177 Kgs / 392 LBS including the fly bar. The T4 can be combined with the T12 using the same fly bar. A lift like the Trabes 4.5 can be used. The advantage of this lift is that the setup and take down time is to the minimum. The biggest advantage of this system is that the module is powered. 

The T12 is a beast. You would need 4 T4 modules to compete with 1 T12 module. You could go in for  4 T12 modules instead of 12 T4 modules, but line array theory suggests that the longer the line, more the likely hood of a cylindrical wave forming. All this is theory of course. A single amplifier module of the T12 delivers 1420 watts, while a single T4 module delivers 410 watts. in reality though, 4 T4 modules will start to out perform the single T12 module. This could be due to the wattage being spread over a greater number of components. for example, one T12 module has 3 HF units while four T4 units add up to 8 HF units. I hope you get the point.

The T8 strikes the middle path between the T4 and the T12. But to start off, it would make sense to stick to the T4 modules. They can always be used with the T12 modules once your operations get larger.

There is a formula that I have learnt the hard way when it comes to flying small format line arrays. For a size of 1000 - 1200 people, increasing the lift height beyond 14 ft (4.25 Mts) is meaningless. It is also meaningless to go below 6ft (1.8 Mts) thus the sweet spot is  confined to 8 Ft. The game lies in pumping as much power possible in between that 8 ft. This is where the T12 will trump. You can cramp in up-to 6 T 12 modules and now you will see that power wise, the T4 modules will bite the dust. The T12 will be cruising along while the T4 will start to run out of breath, Having said that, I am not sure if the number of elements are enough for that mythical "cylindrical wave" to form. (as per Meyer it is not possible for a line array to form a cylindrical wave)

 http://meyersound.com/support/papers/line_array_theory.htm

( also take a look at the  RCF HDL 20 A)


Edited by thirtha - 30 August 2015 at 7:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2015 at 6:30am
This is a little off topic, but since there is a constant debate between "point source" Vs "line array" I thought i must say this,

 ........ yes it is possible to cater to the same number of audience (1000 - 1200) with a good ground stack or "point source".

Let me give you an example. Say I have 3 STX 825 mid high cabs with 3 STX 828 cabs per side. I can handle the same number of people with this configuration. Will it sound the same as 12 T4 elements flown per side? No way. It is like comparing apples and oranges sound quality wise. But when you look at the capital cost, and the rigging cost, you will see that it makes more sense to work with the STX. The problem with the ground stack is that you really need to jack up the volume in order for the sound to reach the rear of the audience. The result is that the audience in the front tend to get plastered with the pressure eventually driving them deaf.  The T4 though will easily manage to distribute sound way better than the STX. Capital cost though is a big issue. The T4 system (24 modules and 6 subs) costs 4 times more than the STX. I have actually made a comparison between the two (STX vs T4 - same venue - same band - same number of audience) and I can say that there is no comparison between the two sound quality wise The T4 is vastly superior in terms of sound quality and over time is subject to a lot less power compression than the STX. but yes it is a breeze to rig the STX and the capital cost / rigging cost advantage stays with the STX.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 August 2015 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by thirtha thirtha wrote:


Seehnav 

Registered User Posted: 25 August 2015 at 2:31pm
Please leave the " Buy Other Sound Equipment " and all other nice Quote's behind.

Dear Seehnav,

At the cost of transgressing the above,

Conanski's words make perfect sense as far as the F1 system is concerned.  How Bose manages to squeeze out those SPL figures out of that unit is a mystery to me. More importantly, you cannot multiply or upscale the F1 system.

If you want to go down the line array route,............ since it is now the flavor of the day, and assuming that you are a rental outfit, I suggest you look at the DB technologies DVA series, ie. the DVA T4, DVA T8 and the DVA T12. The advantage of this system is that you can keep adding numbers as time goes by, rather than being stuck with a system that has upscale limitations.

The T4, with 12 modules a side and 2 double 18 subs per side (DVA S20 / S30N) can handle a 1000 - 1200 people depending on the program material and the size of the arena. The T4 does not have RD net, the onboard hardware that is used to net work the modules, so the fancy jazz is out. The advantage of the T4 is that it is light at the hook point. 12 modules weigh just 177 Kgs / 392 LBS including the fly bar. The T4 can be combined with the T12 using the same fly bar. A lift like the Trabes 4.5 can be used. The advantage of this lift is that the setup and take down time is to the minimum. The biggest advantage of this system is that the module is powered. 

The T12 is a beast. You would need 4 T4 modules to compete with 1 T12 module. You could go in for  4 T12 modules instead of 12 T4 modules, but line array theory suggests that the longer the line, more the likely hood of a cylindrical wave forming. All this is theory of course. A single amplifier module of the T12 delivers 1420 watts, while a single T4 module delivers 410 watts. in reality though, 4 T4 modules will start to out perform the single T12 module. This could be due to the wattage being spread over a greater number of components. for example, one T12 module has 3 HF units while four T4 units add up to 8 HF units. I hope you get the point.

The T8 strikes the middle path between the T4 and the T12. But to start off, it would make sense to stick to the T4 modules. They can always be used with the T12 modules once your operations get larger.

There is a formula that I have learnt the hard way when it comes to flying small format line arrays. For a size of 1000 - 1200 people, increasing the lift height beyond 14 ft (4.25 Mts) is meaningless. It is also meaningless to go below 6ft (1.8 Mts) thus the sweet spot is  confined to 8 Ft. The game lies in pumping as much power possible in between that 8 ft. This is where the T12 will trump. You can cramp in up-to 6 T 12 modules and now you will see that power wise, the T4 modules will bite the dust. The T12 will be cruising along while the T4 will start to run out of breath, Having said that, I am not sure if the number of elements are enough for that mythical "cylindrical wave" to form. (as per Meyer it is not possible for a line array to form a cylindrical wave)

 http://meyersound.com/support/papers/line_array_theory.htm

( also take a look at the  RCF HDL 20 A)

Or you can use one good horn loaded top to do all that.
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713
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