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New RCF bass neo drivers 16"/19"

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Crashpc View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 March 2024 at 4:42pm
RCF released their new high excursion neo line of drivers.
LN16S400, LN19S400 and LN19S450.

While some of us might wish for beefier coils, and I have my reservations for CCAW coils, this looks great for SPL dense extended lows ported designs. 
For PA, one can simply tune it between 24-28Hz, cut at tuning frequency and simply let the cone do the work. Given the impedance shape, the speaker should not be unhappy to do that, low power compression when working around impedance peak, small port area just for impedance shaping and cooling. 

What say you?!


Edited by Crashpc - 10 March 2024 at 4:42pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoadRunnersDust Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2024 at 5:01pm
Can’t see an issue with CCA inherently since it won’t be flexing.

ElectroVoice used edge-wound aluminium VCs in their EVM range for ages before they simplified their SKU list and sacked them for the standard round copper wire
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2024 at 5:28pm
Aluminum has higher heat expansion, less heat conductivity, therefore secondarily worse heat dissipation, has some mechanical weakness. Any stuff being vibrated that strongly will suffer, and I have seen quite a few CCA related failures of joints. I am not disqualifying that design choice, but if copper was a choice, it would be an obvious choice. 

Although 19" strong motor high excursion driver allows for very compact one-manned box to be made, the driver is alone, proprietary, and when stuff breaks down, there is no adequate replacement. Well, RCF LF21N551 was discontinued without a word, and I do not see how this could not happen with these. That would really suck given the already optimized dimensions and cutouts for such drivers.


Edited by Crashpc - 10 March 2024 at 7:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucasdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2024 at 6:45pm
On the subject, if aluminium is 70% electrically conductive compared to copper being 100%, why use aluminium? Is it price, or moving mass, or thermal dissipation, or what?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2024 at 7:37pm
First, the electricity travels on the outer layer of the wire. 
CCA wire is aluminum wire with copper plating, so the electrical conductivity is very close to copper I would guess.

There are three good reasons for doing this. 
1) Price
2) Weight
3) Math and physics. If you can wind two or more layers on the coil former, you are adding double the wire, but you are not doubling the gap size.
If the wire is round and each layer goes inbetween of the previous one, you are clearly gaining on Bl big time. That's why this stuff hangs between Bl 32-40 (at 8 ohms). And that means a lot. Especially in efficiency department. 

But it is not free lunch. Reliability issues, less overloading capabilities. The driver will output at least the same as its copper counterpart or even more, but beware if you put your foot down a bit more on it. Faster selfexecution. It goes it goes and then it's dead. 
Nikon and Canon people should not be married to each other. Why did you let this happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RoadRunnersDust Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2024 at 7:57pm
Originally posted by Crashpc Crashpc wrote:

Aluminum has higher heat expansion
That’s only relevant if it is capable of expanding beyond the tolerances of the gap or if it is getting hot enough for dissimilar expansion to break apart the VC assembly.

Quote less heat conductivity, therefore secondarily worse heat dissipation
Whilst copper is a better thermal conductor, aluminium has superior heat dissipation properties to copper. That’s why it is used in computer heat sinks. A common heat sink design is with a copper transfer face and cores to pull the heat out of the processor quickly and aluminium fins to dissipate heat into the air more effectively.

Quote has some mechanical weakness. Any stuff being vibrated that strongly will suffer, and I have seen quite a few CCA related failures of joints.
The mechanical weaknesses of aluminium or CCA wires are due to relatively low ductility, the VC wire is generally firmly attached to the VC former or heavily encased in glue where the tinsel wires attach, I’m not seeing where you would find enough movement of the VC wire to cause any more or less chance of failure than a conventional copper wire.

What driver failures have you seen that have been related to CCA? The only times I’ve seen it mechanically fail in other applications have been almost 100% down to improper strain relief 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucasdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2024 at 8:09pm

Just reading this, incase anyone wants to get a bit nerdy on the subject...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2024 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by RoadRunnersDust RoadRunnersDust wrote:

Originally posted by Crashpc Crashpc wrote:

Aluminum has higher heat expansion
That’s only relevant if it is capable of expanding beyond the tolerances of the gap or if it is getting hot enough for dissimilar expansion to break apart the VC assembly.
 Yeah, and that's what would happen. To my knowledge different adhesives need to be used to perform fairly, still not making up 100% of the copper coil solutions.

Quote
Quote less heat conductivity, therefore secondarily worse heat dissipation
Whilst copper is a better thermal conductor, aluminium has superior heat dissipation properties to copper. That’s why it is used in computer heat sinks. A common heat sink design is with a copper transfer face and cores to pull the heat out of the processor quickly and aluminium fins to dissipate heat into the air more effectively.
Data on this one?
This must be bogus. There are good reasons for better heat conductor to dissipate better. 

Quote
Quote has some mechanical weakness. Any stuff being vibrated that strongly will suffer, and I have seen quite a few CCA related failures of joints.
The mechanical weaknesses of aluminium or CCA wires are due to relatively low ductility, 
There you have it. Have you ever seen broken Al wires in home AC circuits?

Quote
the VC wire is generally firmly attached to the VC former or heavily encased in glue where the tinsel wires attach, I’m not seeing where you would find enough movement of the VC wire to cause any more or less chance of failure than a conventional copper wire.

Again. Even secure wire could be broken. Heat + vibration is great way for a wire to die, especially Aluminum one. 
I have seen even broken Xover coil wires that were submerged into warnishing/laquer material to stay together. 1000W of mid bass and one year usage made it clear that nothing is safe from heat and vibration.few xover coils broken.

Quote
What driver failures have you seen that have been related to CCA? The only times I’ve seen it mechanically fail in other applications have been almost 100% down to improper strain relief 
B&C speakers NDL/HPL series drivers. 
Doesn't matter why really. All what matters for me as the user is occurence, and that one was clearly higher with CCA based coil drivers brought to my paws. 

These are high excursion beasts, with quite some more risk involved. I am not saying something is going to happen. I amsaying that based on experience there is a reason to be cautious and to have preference.


Edited by Crashpc - 10 March 2024 at 9:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2024 at 9:36pm
18Sound 18NLW9601 is made with CCAW and it can take all the abuse you can think of.
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crashpc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2024 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

18Sound 18NLW9601 is made with CCAW and it can take all the abuse you can think of.

Sure. None of us can compare apples to apples though. 
My experience might be anecdotal, but seeing CCA coil drivers broken (open wire), only managing to burn CCA driver in my life, measuring performance differences with CCA clearly taking L in some aspects, looks like too much coincidence to me.

I am still open to acknowledge I'm an idiot, but I didn't have to with copper ever. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucasdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2024 at 10:50pm
Data on this one? This must be bogus. There are good reasons for better heat conductor to dissipate better.

See my nerdy post re CPU heat sinking above.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2024 at 1:29am
The 19 inch drivers would be more suited for horn-loading. The TS Parameters speak for themselves...

Best Regards, 
Elliot Thompson
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