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Noob free party rig advice

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junoprobelaunch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote junoprobelaunch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2018 at 6:12pm
Yep that's pretty much what I'm suggesting. Depending on the amp you may be able to run kicks off it aswell but I reccomend you get dedicated amps for each frequency band. As far as an amp for the top goes, you can either get a passive crossover (will split the incoming signal into the upper mid and higher frequencies for the compression driver) or you can bi-amp and have one amp for the upper mid drivers and another for the compression drivers. Yes, that set up should be loud enough for 100 people. An LMS is simply a Loudspeaker Management System. It's a unit that goes between the mixing deck or signal source and the amps and does a variety of important and neccesary tasks. It's often just referred to as a crossover because that is one of it's main functions so alot of the time when people refer to a crossover unit they actually mean an LMS.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AM55 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2018 at 6:16pm
LMS stands for loudspeaker management system it can also be called a DSP (digital speaker processor) or crossover.

You need to understand the terminology/theory before you spend £10k. You can either start very simple and work you way up or really do your research.

Youtube is a good source of knowledge nowadays, there will probably be some good videos on running multi way systems and how to set them up with amps and processing or of course read more on here.

If you bought a turnkey system from timebomb I am sure he would take the time to show you and explain how to set it all up.
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Jo bg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2018 at 6:37pm
hi
there is some knowledge involved in setting up 3 or 4 way system, even with common designs you'll have to come up with the right crossover and delays in lms/dsp (lms or loud speaker management is what the old analog crossovers was, and more: divides full range signal from mixer into bass/mid/high and sends it bandpassed to sub mid and top amps so that the drivers play only the right part of the signal, and offers delay and phase control to time allign the speakers, limiters etc) and this takes instruments, time to study aand time to practice.
if you are committed to build a system i suggest you take some time to understand things better , hear some systems and be able to make your own choices based on your needs instead of following random internet advice.
when you have a better idea come back with more precise answers.

10k is not a bad budget for 100 people, with 4 right bins you will hurt them without risking your subs.

buying a turn key system will allow you to play smooth form start.

for 100 people a good compromise could be building only subs and buying used or new pro midtops, maybe a solution capable of reaching wsx crossover to allow a 2 way system and get the delicate mid bass/mid/high balance done by the pros.
good luck!

Edited by Jo bg - 17 October 2018 at 6:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2018 at 6:43pm
And don't skimp on drivers, amps and wood quality. better to start smaller and expand than start cheap and buy again when you want to expand.
2 well built subs with proper high quality drivers and quality amps will play as loud as 4 chipboard bins with cheap drivers and amps, sound better and last longer ...
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junoprobelaunch View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote junoprobelaunch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2018 at 7:23pm
^^^^ one of the most important things for a newbie to understand


Edited by junoprobelaunch - 17 October 2018 at 7:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 October 2018 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by Jo bg Jo bg wrote:

hi
there is some knowledge involved in setting up 3 or 4 way system, even with common designs you'll have to come up with the right crossover and delays in lms/dsp (lms or loud speaker management is what the old analog crossovers was, and more: divides full range signal from mixer into bass/mid/high and sends it bandpassed to sub mid and top amps so that the drivers play only the right part of the signal, and offers delay and phase control to time allign the speakers, limiters etc) and this takes instruments, time to study aand time to practice.
if you are committed to build a system i suggest you take some time to understand things better , hear some systems and be able to make your own choices based on your needs instead of following random internet advice.
when you have a better idea come back with more precise answers.

10k is not a bad budget for 100 people, with 4 right bins you will hurt them without risking your subs.

buying a turn key system will allow you to play smooth form start.

for 100 people a good compromise could be building only subs and buying used or new pro midtops, maybe a solution capable of reaching wsx crossover to allow a 2 way system and get the delicate mid bass/mid/high balance done by the pros.
good luck!


Very good post and advice
Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.
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Ababblingbabboon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ababblingbabboon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2018 at 12:03am
Originally posted by AM55 AM55 wrote:

LMS stands for loudspeaker management system it can also be called a DSP (digital speaker processor) or crossover.

You need to understand the terminology/theory before you spend £10k. You can either start very simple and work you way up or really do your research.

Youtube is a good source of knowledge nowadays, there will probably be some good videos on running multi way systems and how to set them up with amps and processing or of course read more on here.

If you bought a turnkey system from timebomb I am sure he would take the time to show you and explain how to set it all up.

The plan is to begin building in spring. So I've set up 5his post for the purpose you mentioned - to get an idea of what I need to understand and research, hopefully so I'm r4afy and know what I'm do8ng in spring.
But you're right
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Ababblingbabboon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ababblingbabboon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2018 at 3:44pm
this is where I'm at planning wise-

2wsx cabinets w v18 1000 drivers 
1 kick bin w sd 18 driver
1 turbolight tfl 760ht

Lms(research needed to determine which model to get)

Amps for each speaker type, with plenty of headroom as long term plan (assuming combo is correct) is to add to this set up, double up on each speaker. Don't want to have to sell and rebuy amps, would like to be able to build another wsx and simply wire it up and be ready to go.
Had trouble finding info on appropriate mid tops for use with wsx and kick bins, so I'm aware the turbolight is probably a bad choice. 

Footnote: early plan, looking to perfect it, and improve my knowledge in the area for when I build next year.
Any help for a useless noob like me is much appreciated 
Thanks 

Edit: am going to think of gen specifics, amps and lms after I've decided on speaker set up.
Only been looking at this forum and researching live speaker stuff over the last week or so, after thinking of putting on free parties for a while, very inter3sting stuff! I'm eager to crawl out of this dark cave of noobish ignorance


Edited by Ababblingbabboon - 18 October 2018 at 3:51pm
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Jo bg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 October 2018 at 6:01pm
hi

there are some topics of suggested readings, Ev Pa Bible and Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook are available as free pdf and are a solid, but a bit dated, foundation of soundsystem knowledge. if after that you feel you want more, you could order Mc Carthy "sound system design and optimization" to get deeper while maitaing a very divulgative register (you can read it even if your not a real engineer).

if you look at tfl 760ht specs you see it is a 50° horizontal 25° vertical dispersion… it means at 25 degrees off center each side it should be around 6db less loud and after that falls rapidly and usually not in linear fashion… translated this means you sound would beam a bit, shooting sound straight but covering less on the sides… ideally you'd want 2 side by side, splayed, to cover around 100°.

in the specs you see that lower corssover is 180 hz, not low enough to reach wsx so you ar right to plan a kick to use with this box. altough cool and useful on bigger system for 100 or 150 people you could also look at reflex tops instead of horns: a 2x12 or 2 x 15 + 1.4/2 comp midtop should reach lower and allow to cross directly to wsx, giving an easier system to manage with less things to go wrong and less dsp and amplifier channel needed.

of course this will look more PA and less soundsystem, horns are sexy and more practically having kicks allows for a higher stack, which hepls bring comps above heads (high frequencies get blocked by small objects like people, so rising the tops allows high frequencies to reach the people behind second row),
so as always it's a compomise.

if you go with branded midtops (it will take a lot of skill to make homebrew midtops sound something like a pro box with real fulltime engineers and labs behind) try to get the original processing platform so you could get official settings. Some older boxes have analog controllers with presets.

If I were you ( with your money ) I would look for some Martin H3. tall box, 210 cm on top of wsx, reaches low enough to not need a kick, 3 way /2 way passive so makes for a 3 way system, horny so not your average black box look.
with it's 70° dispersion it COULD be enough to start out with 1 - many dub sounds have less dispersion, but my priority would be to add a second one as soon as possible. but this is me...

trying a very quick calculation for a 10000 party soundsystem ...
2x diy wsx (if it's for me tapped horns ) 1500 with good finish
2x martin h3 2300 (right now on ebay)
500 cables, little tings you need
250 little good analog mixer to go between console/drum machine/mics and processor (ALlen zed or up)
250 a monitor, will make your djs and in turn your system sound better
4800
Leaves 5200 that could buy

dsp xta 226 1000 with martin settings (or would old martin dx be better?)
4200 labgruppen/powersoft/linea. for small systems some ffa amps have the nice plus of being dual mono with dual power inlet, so you could get more juice from common sockets - moot point if you plan on proper distribution.
OR
(if settings fo h3 available) ditch the dsp and go with dsp amps, again lab/Powersoft/linea…

(then you'll discover you need/want mics, di, stagebox and other 1000 tings but this should get you going)
For a 100 people in the Woods a think you have got the budget to build a nice sounding kit with reliable electronics, but do your study and pick your compomise, maybe for your crew it's better to buy a bit cheaper tops and electronics (but stay decent!) and put part of that budget into lights or van or just more subs to build tha having sex wall for visual effect...







   
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Ababblingbabboon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ababblingbabboon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2018 at 3:37pm
Update to plan -

2 diy wsx w v18 1000 drivers   (low freq)
2 diy hd15 w sd 18 drivers (kick freq)
Mid top (struggling to find mid top that is suitable and diy) 

Not too worried about amps, lms, and driver as I figure they'll be straight forward enough to find once I know what I need spec wise

Needed for outdoor raves (50 - 100 people) 
Long term plan is that I'm building a rig that's easy to expand upon and won't need replacement parts, I'm guessing I can just stick to the ratio of 2:2:1 and multiply it, 
Hence the possibly overkill drivers 


Any advice on which mid top to go for? Has to be diy as when I want to expand on the rig I'd like to be able to just build another mid top as oppos3d to looking for second hand stuff, I figure it'll be cheaper and more convenient. 
Apologies for my noob status, and probably completely ignorant post and rig, I'm aware of my foolishness!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IainB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2018 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by Ababblingbabboon Ababblingbabboon wrote:

Any advice on which mid top to go for? Has to be diy as when I want to expand on the rig I'd like to be able to just build another mid top as opposed to looking for second hand stuff, I figure it'll be cheaper and more convenient. 

Have you had a look at anything on here?

As for DIY vs second hand, I wouldnt be so sure, im in the middle of building a pair of MT102s and the drivers / horn alone come in just shy of £1300 (using Blue Aran) 


Edited by IainB - 24 October 2018 at 4:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gen0me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 October 2018 at 4:21pm
Those H3's are pretty often on ebay so I dont think you would be looking long in case you need second pair.

But ofc 90° dispersion would be way better.
Especially that adding second pair of H3 can finish up like this:
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