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Not happy with top kick/tops

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Mikeserrio92 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 March 2022 at 3:31pm
I've been building up my rig over lockdown, and I'm not super happy about my top section,

The rig is as follows;

2x X15 copies
Emminence CA154 crossed over from about 80 around 2.5k
Emminence ASD1001crossed over from about 2.5k up
I took the plans from the plans section of the website, and slightly modified the volume of the cabs to suit the drivers

2x 18 superscoops
RCF drivers with an 800w recone kit
Also took the plans from the plans section, but left those alone.

So my thinking was that I could use the X15s on their own for smaller parties, and then bring the scoops out when I want to make some real noise.

My problem I've got is that if I cross the 15s down to do kick, I seem to lose quite a lot of the mid section, especially mid/highs. The horns are doing their job but again I feel like I'm stretching them too far by having them crossed over so low.

I'm wondering if it's better to have the 15s just doing kick and work on some tops, maybe 12s/10s with the horns.

Rookie mistake on my part trying to make essentially a full range cab out of two drivers, but I've got to keep the misses happy and not have a shed full of speakers!

Any advice welcome

Cheers


Edited by Mikeserrio92 - 21 March 2022 at 3:41pm
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Lucasdude View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucasdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2022 at 5:00pm
2.5k is very high for a 15" to cross over at. The response for that driver seems to get uneven at around 1.3k. Its a bit of a Jack of all trades, that 15. Motor strength is low, so it won't be great for serious kick, sensitivity is pretty low suggesting it's not great for higher frequencies and 2.5" VC means it's only good for around 250w. TBH, I think you will struggle to do much more with that driver, and as you've noticed it will sound better with less stress on it and a higher cross over point. Looking at the specs of that HF, I think you're right to consider using it with a 10" instead. Which RCF drivers do you have in the scoops? Have you tried using them up to around 120hz to take the stress off the 15"?
   What are you using for crossover and eq? Those scoops are lacking a little in the upper kick region, but you should be able to eq a bit if your amp and driver has the headroom.


Edited by Lucasdude - 21 March 2022 at 5:11pm
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Mikeserrio92 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mikeserrio92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2022 at 5:40pm
The 18s are RCF L18 851 that have been reconed, I was told they they have 800w kits in them now,

I've put sort of mid/high kicks through them, but I dont like how much the kick interferes with the sub bass, it's not too bad when I put some of the low kick through them, say around 90-100hz.

Crossover is a twin 3 way behringer CX3400, EQ is a Samson e62i. I've spent a lot of time playing about with the rig, and I think I've got it to sound as nice as I can to my ears,

I just wonder if I'd be better off having those 15s do kicks in a reflex cab, and maybe something like mt102s from the plans section?

Or maybe keep the tops, cross them over differently and go for HDs, USB, Y bins etc

Cheers


Edited by Mikeserrio92 - 21 March 2022 at 6:03pm
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Bams View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bams Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2022 at 6:02pm
I would start experimenting crossing around 1.6k upwards. At 2k the 15” are loud if the sheets are correct, but the compression driver can also do that. Th 15” can breathe more freely but you will not get what you are looking for. 80-1500 Hz is too much. I run a no budget system with 2x6,5 inch from 170-1.2 and face the same issue. Always will be a compromise. The mt102 on it own will be of much more use. An earlier conception of my rig ran mt101 above above jbl 4530 crossed around 120 and this was a match made in heaven (as far as no budget heaven goes..) Keep the eminences as monitors with some filtering and tell the significant other a few extra cabs are smaller as a few mountainbikes, beer shed or whatever other manly hobbies are in fashion right now.

Edited by Bams - 21 March 2022 at 6:06pm
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Lucasdude View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucasdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2022 at 6:10pm
Are you running 3 way active in stereo? Are all the amps the same or atleast the same gain? Have you tried running it mono and using one channel of the eq on subs and the other on the tops? Maybe consider trying a passive crossover with the tops, the Eminence one might work well with those drivers.
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Mikeserrio92 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mikeserrio92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2022 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by Lucasdude Lucasdude wrote:

Are you running 3 way active in stereo? Are all the amps the same or atleast the same gain? Have you tried running it mono and using one channel of the eq on subs and the other on the tops? Maybe consider trying a passive crossover with the tops, the Eminence one might work well with those drivers.

Yes its currently set up in mono, the EQ is twin 31 band, and the crossover is twin 3 way. The scoops have their own low pass and eq, the tops have a separate eq and seperate 2 way crossover.

The modulation rack is at 0db, and all amps are set to about -16db
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucasdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2022 at 6:58pm
As Bams said, you can certainly try a lower crossover point, but I think the slopes on the 3400 are 12db, so use your ears as a guide to HF distortion! Alternatively, you could seek out some 1" HF drivers that can safely go down a lot lower than your current ones. The BMS 4550 can be used below 1khz, depending on the horn.
  It might be an idea to borrow or hire a decent pair of 12 or 15+ horn passives for a weekend. With a big enough amp, I don't see why they wouldn't provide you with the kick you're missing using a sensible HPF.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mikeserrio92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2022 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by Lucasdude Lucasdude wrote:

As Bams said, you can certainly try a lower crossover point, but I think the slopes on the 3400 are 12db, so use your ears as a guide to HF distortion! Alternatively, you could seek out some 1" HF drivers that can safely go down a lot lower than your current ones. The BMS 4550 can be used below 1khz, depending on the horn.
  It might be an idea to borrow or hire a decent pair of 12 or 15+ horn passives for a weekend. With a big enough amp, I don't see why they wouldn't provide you with the kick you're missing using a sensible HPF.

Oh I like the sounds of that! I keep seeing images of rigs that have a super small array of horns/bullets, but I figured they were for maybe 5k+

I could easily knock up a small box to put on top of the rig with a few 1" drivers that go a lot lower

So have the scoops crossed over slightly higher,
Trim some off the bottom and top of the 15s,
Run maybe another 2 or 4 1" drivers to fill the gap better

EDIT:

I could also try and swap out my horns, they're super short. I'm probably best off working out what they're tuned to


Edited by Mikeserrio92 - 21 March 2022 at 7:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lucasdude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2022 at 8:37pm
Sorry, I may have muddled things for you a little. The reason I'm suggesting the 4550 is to replace your existing HF driver but use the same horn. This is really because your 15" drivers are relatively low power, so the 4550 1" exit drivers can cross over lower without distorting. The bullet HFs you've seen are typically used above large format 2" HFs with very large horns that struggle above 14-15khz.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mikeserrio92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 April 2022 at 11:40pm
Well I never!

After trying different x-over setups, EQ settings, double checking the cab sizes and tuning, checking the maths on the HF driver horn, etc etc.

It turns out the culprit is my peavy pv 900! It sounds terrible!

I swapped the HF over to an LD systems amp and it's so much brighter its unreal.

My only concern now is that with the peavy doing the 15s, they might start sounding bad.

I'm going to have a play about with the EQ and x-over tomorrow and see what I can come up with

Every day is a school day!
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