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MattStolton View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 April 2019 at 4:47pm
This is something I stumbled on a number of years ago, but it still exists, and seems logical! Discusses with measurements, how the movement of your head is enough to completely change what you hear, despite the speakers/amp/source and room all staying the same.

Just have a read, comments are welcome.

http://ethanwiner.com/believe.html

I was at the ISCE X exhibition, and a key note lecture discussed how your brain can easily learn to allow for the slight dip in response caused by the absorption of a wave by your nose, and can locate, in the horizontal, to within 1 degree of source. All done by a slight (3dB dip at around 8KHz!) Adds some credibility to the above article?
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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toastyghost View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2019 at 5:15pm
Also known as the 'head related transfer function'. We're universally awful at locating in the vertical plane, and without vision, front to back as well.
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MattStolton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2019 at 7:21pm
Funnily enough, something mentioned at the ISCE X lecture was a 2K tone, played to you whilst blindfolded, from on axis to your nose, will tend to be heard as if directly in front. 1K tone from same source, will tend to be perceived as if coming from directly behind you!

Yes, vertically, only accurate to, typically, within 15 degree of source, also discussed, by Dr Peter Mapp, who gave the lecture. I will admit, I had heard of most of it, but he did lecture in a very entertaining manor.

One thing that I wasn't aware of, was how little time error in lip synching was required to really annoy people. Specifically mentioned errors of 7-9mS of error for AFILS users made them tiresome of using the loop, and beyond 15mS made it down right unusable! Kind of debunked Haas Precedence by accident.

Beware your perceptions of sound...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 April 2019 at 7:37pm
Oh yeah, the Haas effect is only a thing in very controlled lab conditions. People will argue otherwise til they’re blue in the face but I’ve yet to see real world evidence to counter these sorts of findings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote godathunder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2019 at 10:04am
re: haas effect - ok, admittedly empirical rather than objective but when setting up the home hifi if I add a slight delay to one channel it becomes subjectively quieter and the stereo image shifts towards it. this is repeatable if I add the delay to either channel

edit: closer/further brainfart



Edited by godathunder - 09 April 2019 at 10:06am
LOUDER THAN LOUD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2019 at 11:01am
Originally posted by godathunder godathunder wrote:

re: haas effect - ok, admittedly empirical rather than objective but when setting up the home hifi if I add a slight delay to one channel it becomes subjectively quieter and the stereo image shifts towards it. this is repeatable if I add the delay to either channel

edit: closer/further brainfart




Yes, it’s called being out of phase. That’s not the fundamental of the proposed Haas effect

Edited by toastyghost - 09 April 2019 at 11:02am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madboffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 April 2019 at 10:42pm
I'm guessing the AFILS problem is with counter loops where the listener is very close to the person speaking, as with a typlical "counter loop" in a shop, bank, etc.

But otherwise it's completely normal for lipsync to be out. Watch somebody carefully from halfway down a large room, (or from a greater distance through binoculars if necessary) - you will always hear them some time after seeing them. We accept this as natural and usually don't even notice.

What's *really* annoying is when you hear the words before seeing them from the person's lips, as is now common with digital video systems at conferences etc. Maybe some people notice it more than others, but it gives me the horrors...




Edited by madboffin - 09 April 2019 at 10:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 April 2019 at 12:37am
If the vidiots and sound crew can't talk to each other and agree on a delay value for the screen feed to be in sync, you need new suppliers...

As for the physical world, you lose 'sync' after 30m or so, but it's gradual from there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote madboffin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 April 2019 at 9:51pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

If the vidiots and sound crew can't talk to each other and agree on a delay value for the screen feed to be in sync, you need new suppliers...


Normally yes, but consider the following scenario:

Awards ceremony in a large venue with the usual presentations etc, the guest presenter being a VIP raconteur / comedian.
During the event the presenter comes off stage to work the tables at the front of the room, doing their act as known and chatting to the guests.

Of course you have rung out the radio mic thoroughly during the tech so there is no risk of feedback. But you also delayed it to the satisfaction of the video director because the super high-tech video processor takes several frames to do its thing and they don't want the presenter to look silly on the video screens down the room.

During the soundcheck / rehearsal, the presenter finds the delay extremely difficult to deal with (not surprisingly) and says it is unacceptable. And having suffered from it at the tables, they now find it rather too noticeable from the stage as well. Discussions follow with the PM etc and the end result is that the delay has to be taken back to zero, or whatever minimum you can get away with.

Either way, the noise dept can't win...




Edited by madboffin - 13 April 2019 at 9:52pm
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