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MarjanM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2019 at 2:31pm
I tend to agree here with Viktor. If only you could peak inside the EAW Anya per instance. And then look at the price.
Most of the powered boxes are made with too much compromise. Some of the best selling mid grade one even use 2 ohm speakers in order to use as small amp as possible.
Not to mention the ordeal you need to go trough when you need to service a module.
Hence why i still resist jumping the powered box wagon. Doing it will save me soo much trouble designing passive crossovers, explaining people why they can not use any random amp and dsp to power our boxes. Why i dont have DSP setting for all the 749 different DSP units in existance, and so on.

Marjan Milosevic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote efinque Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2019 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

External amplifiers are so last century.

Active speakers!

The problem with active speakers is that you can't place them very far from the source, unless you have a very capable mixer/preamp.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JBK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2019 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

The problem with active speakers is that you can't place them very far from the source, unless you have a very capable mixer/preamp.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snowflake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2019 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by JBK JBK wrote:

Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

The problem with active speakers is that you can't place them very far from the source, unless you have a very capable mixer/preamp.
Dead


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote confused.com Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2019 at 4:43pm
[/QUOTE]

The problem with active speakers is that you can't place them very far from the source, unless you have a very capable mixer/preamp.
[/QUOTE]


I've kept quiet for the 40 plus pages of the "Dance Stack" soap opera, everybody starts somewhere but this latest statement reveals a terrible lack of basic knowledge regarding sound equipment and electronics. By all means continue with your own nonsense nailing components into old furniture but please refrain from making any more of these silly comments and suggestions on anybody else's threads until you have enough knowledge and experience to actually give a useful and qualified opinion.

Edited by confused.com - 04 January 2019 at 4:45pm
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Pasi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2019 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by confused.com confused.com wrote:


I've kept quiet for the 40 plus pages of the "Dance Stack" soap opera, everybody starts somewhere but this latest statement reveals a terrible lack of basic knowledge regarding sound equipment and electronics. By all means continue with your own nonsense nailing components into old furniture but please refrain from making any more of these silly comments and suggestions on anybody else's threads until you have enough knowledge and experience to actually give a useful and qualified opinion.


+1

We got enough pseudoscientist here anyway without him :D

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2019 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

I tend to agree here with Viktor. If only you could peak inside the EAW Anya per instance. And then look at the price.
Most of the powered boxes are made with too much compromise. Some of the best selling mid grade one even use 2 ohm speakers in order to use as small amp as possible.
Not to mention the ordeal you need to go trough when you need to service a module.
Hence why i still resist jumping the powered box wagon. Doing it will save me soo much trouble designing passive crossovers, explaining people why they can not use any random amp and dsp to power our boxes. Why i dont have DSP setting for all the 749 different DSP units in existance, and so on.



Yet these same companies still can’t maintain their profit or growth needed to survive. EAW just got sold, for example, after a really difficult period. So what do they do? Go out in a blaze of glory with zero compromise designs? Or try to find efficiencies based on real world usage for the majority of users?

This is always going to be the conflict of business. We all know the ‘three options, pick two’ idiom.

I agree with you on principle but life is not that simple. And until I see a real H8 working, or real evidence of one beyond the same shill never posting photos, data, measurements or anything of actual value, I’ll continue to think of it as a lovely pipe dream that exists on paper and 3D renders.

One that still needs DSP to be remotely competitive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2019 at 5:44pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

Originally posted by MattStolton MattStolton wrote:

External amplifiers are so last century.

Active speakers!

The problem with active speakers is that you can't place them very far from the source, unless you have a very capable mixer/preamp.
I didn't think it could get any worse.
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Pasi View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2019 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


Yet these same companies still can’t maintain their profit or growth needed to survive. EAW just got sold, for example, after a really difficult period. So what do they do? Go out in a blaze of glory with zero compromise designs? Or try to find efficiencies based on real world usage for the majority of users?


Well, considering that BOM cost is less than 10% from retail price anyway, it makes small difference. Bigger issue is the actual R&D, support, marketing, running the company etc. It's funny how everyone likes to get paid and nobody is willing to do charity work for 40 hours per week...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2019 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by Pasi Pasi wrote:

Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:


Yet these same companies still can’t maintain their profit or growth needed to survive. EAW just got sold, for example, after a really difficult period. So what do they do? Go out in a blaze of glory with zero compromise designs? Or try to find efficiencies based on real world usage for the majority of users?


Well, considering that BOM cost is less than 10% from retail price anyway, it makes small difference. Bigger issue is the actual R&D, support, marketing, running the company etc. It's funny how everyone likes to get paid and nobody is willing to do charity work for 40 hours per week...


So you think U.Viktor gets paid for these posts or is it charity work?

Well yeah, materials cost is only part of the picture. A tiny one, often. But if you can save a fortune on R&D for your high volume boxes by using an off the shelf amp module, DSP, with the support and toolset that comes with, then that aids your bottom line too.

There are of course people out there doing zero compromise work. Many of them go bust, super early, often before getting a product to market.
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MarjanM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 January 2019 at 11:32pm
No comprimise work relusts in expencive product that then have problem finding buyers. Nowadays the trend is to search for cheaper products, not better onece.
I have few fantastic products in my head. But when i do the math, i doubt many will be willing to pay for them unless some fance name badge is on the boxes. So as Kyle said, we do make compromises or we will close shop very fast.
My comment above was more about how i feel about powered boxes. Nothing to do actually with the PKN amps.
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
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MattStolton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 January 2019 at 10:16am
Sorry for sh*t stirring, just trying to get a rise, and, unfortunately, got one!

In all seriousness, given the love of fixing a box's compromises through judicious use of DSP, the amplifier is less critical. As long as it is sized enough to give headroom enough for whatever DSP "fix" is employed, no worries?

A "good" amp will be able to run full power 10Hz - 30KHz into rated load, 24/7/365, and have massive power supply and spare output devices, and blah blah. But that costs money, either in development, or at point of sale.

It does make some sense to match amp to exact requirements, keeps retail price affordable, if it does compromise longevity a little. A "good" manufacturer will charge a little more, and give a bit more headroom, for reputation of brand if nothing else, and stock spare modules.

Much as my plate amp was a flippant sarcastic remark to annoy, there is some mileage in it. Consider the multi per box on a remote amped MLA box. I forget how many individual amplifiers there is in a full size MLA box, but it is a "couple", so would require quite a number of Socapex to drive each box. Just not practical for the fashion of long Line Arrays being used in todays market place. And then consider losses in copper, over the typical distances between amp racks and hang, and it does start looking a bit shonkey for rack mounted amplifiers.

I admit MLA is the extreme end of Active boxes, a large number of big line arrays are passive, and big multis are run to hangs, but other than accessibility to amps mid gig, I can't actually see much benefit.

Most manufacturers offer some form of TCIP GUI monitoring of amplifiers, plate or rack mounted, so any sort of "Amp Tech" can keep a close eye on proceedings from arm chair, with laptop and cup of tea in each hand.

I just think that distributing power, balanced line and TCIP monitoring (or Dante the audio and control/monitoring over the same bit of Cat5/6) to a hang, or cluster of cabs, is easier than speaker multis?

For subs, on the ground, close to amp racks, it can make more sense to go with big rackmount amps, and short multis, as long as the correct processing is offered by manufacturer, for whatever you choice of processor is. But up in the sky, real hard work IMHO.

If the manufacturer is any good, then their choice of DSP and plate amp settings should be good for the box? If it isn't, no one buys the box!
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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