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PKN XE6000 AMP?

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MarjanM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

better than one xe6000? Maybe.
but not better than two of xe6000.

I can get two of xe10000 for the money of PLM and still 2racks total
+ more headroom!

That is a very stupid comparison. It might be 7 times cheaper, if it can not do subs as good as the other amp, then whats the point of being cheap?
Two XE6000 will still sound weaker because they dont do subs very well.
Cant speak of the XE10000 because you are the only one that has actually seen it in real life.
For the rest of us, it does not exist. 
Marjan Milosevic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote U.Viktor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 12:30pm
For same reasons we can reach 130dB++ 'sub SPL' with couple of xe6000 and not a very big array of Martin WSX boxes..

Of course both the pre-processing, drivers and boxes could be very influental. Maybe your boxes was not suitable to push the SPL either preprocessing flawed? Another thing what the xe will really can not do this:

http://www.srgclub.org/images/d_3.jpg







Edited by U.Viktor - 16 May 2018 at 12:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speaker Sol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 2:14pm
I really don't get the lack of sub thing. 

I switched from Macrotech 9000i to PKN XE6000, and I found the PKN blew the crown out of the water, hands down no contest. 

I have been running my XE6000s for years and they have never failed to impress. 

I even recently did a AB comparison with a Powersoft K10, including measurements (not calibrated but the same for both).  

In this test while I could detect a slight audible difference between the two amps, I measured no difference in frequency response. To my ears the PKN sounded cleaner, but the slightly rougher sound of the K10 lent it self well to Bass driven music. imo, however this difference was very small.

My results maybe because I don't drive my amps to clip and leave them there all night. Typically I aim to have plenty of head room in my amps and system, maybe the PKNs do start to sag on sub-bass when driven to max for prolonged period? But is this really how you guys choose to run your systems?
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MarjanM View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 2:23pm
When you have subs capable of high spl at 30Hz, you will hear the difference.
Yes, we have gone trough this topic million times before. PKN is cleaner, more precise, and all that.
Which is exactly why you can hear others "sounding" louder. I even talked with Peter if they can run the limiters a little less conservative and let a bit of distortion pass trough.
It will add to the heaviness of the subs. 
I think that no other D class amp can sound on tops as the XE6000 does on my line array. I simply love it. 
But for subs i chose other amps. 

Marjan Milosevic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speaker Sol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

When you have subs capable of high spl at 30Hz, you will hear the difference.


I'm running Void Trinity X, loaded with BNC 21sw152 -4ohm. They are flat to 31hz. And definitely capable high spl.

I run them 1 per channel off of my XE6000s.

They can take every watt of power the XE6000 can deliver. 
But Iv'e not yet done a gig that required me to run the amps flat out like that, like I say this isn't how I run my system, if I was commonly needing to do this I would think it's time for a bigger amp or to bring more speakers.

The point I am making here is that I have not heard or measured any lack of sub, the way I run my system. 

Which leaves me with the question: Is this lack of sub only apparent when running the amp at maximum for prolonged periods of time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speaker Sol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 3:21pm
Also just want to add. 

If I can do better I want to do better. 
I'm not stuck to PKN. Just so far, I have not tested anything that made me go, 'oh, iv'e been missing this'. 

I really wanted to plug in that K10 and be blown away with powerfull sub that the PKN wasn't delivering, but it simply wasn't the case. 


Edit:

Oh another possibility is that the impedance of the cone in the cab is actually quite high. commonly seeing 7 to 10ohms (though it does drop to 4.6 at a few points). 

It could be that I am voltage limited rather than current limited and that is why I am not seeing the sagging Sub performance.  


Edited by Speaker Sol - 16 May 2018 at 3:25pm
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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 4:21pm
Why not just bench a PKN from 100 Hz - 20 Hz (using steps) to see if the output voltage is consistent driving a 4 ohm load? If the output voltage is the same within the measured frequency bandwidth then, one can take distortion into factor using a distortion analyser.

Best Regards, 

Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speaker Sol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 4:28pm
I'm mostly interested in figuring out why MarjanM's experiences with these amps is so different to mine. 

I am under the impression that MarjanM has a wider variety of speakers and amps to me and it is likely that he has more experience, knowledge and better testing equipment than me. I don't for a second doubt what he is saying is not true. 

But why am I not seeing the same results. Over the last 7 or 8 years or running these amps, I have never come away from any test or event feeling like the amp wasn't delivering plenty of sub. 

But if it turns out that I can get noticeably more sub bass from just swapping amps, well that would be great to know.

Regards
Sol


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jo bg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 5:36pm
Hi
I wonder if this difference in todays pa sub amps sound is to be percieved only when you take them - or their power supply - to the limit, low crest factor low impedance; and that is excluding the sound of the limiters, i mean 2 ohm just before limiting/clipping/recognizable distortion and 4 speakers a side...

You - and I am doing the same with my subs - use one single speaker per channel and at 4 ohm, giving the amp an easier life.
I wonder if in more relaxed conditions like these modern labs, Powersofts, pkns… (inukes? ) do sound more similaron sub, becoming different beasts when you load them full.
As long as you hang two speakers per amp and the amp covers the dynamic of the signal, the continuous load shouln't be that high if two speakers survive.
Once you hang four or more big bad speakers per amp and want very high continous output you need one of the amps with beefier powersupply…
Isn't k10 inlet 32 amp / 45 peak? i can see that could make all the difference vs my 230V/16amp rated labgruppen fp+ with 8 subs, but as long as you stay at 4ohm and before current/voltage limiting will it matter?
Could this be one of the reasons of the "no balls" fame of some amps, just asking the power supply to do magic?


Edited by Jo bg - 16 May 2018 at 5:36pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by Jo bg Jo bg wrote:

Hi
I wonder if this difference in todays pa sub amps sound is to be percieved only when you take them - or their power supply - to the limit, low crest factor low impedance; and that is excluding the sound of the limiters, i mean 2 ohm just before limiting/clipping/recognizable distortion and 4 speakers a side...


The quest of amplifier design is to offer the most power with the least amount of distortion. One could look at a valve amplifier made in the 1950s to a solid state amplifier made today as a prime example. You have a higher probability to have more distortion from the valve amplifier designed decades ago, than a solid state amplifier designed today. 

 

Surprisingly enough, it is the distortion found in the older designs that many are fond about in terms of bass reproduction.

 

Operating an amplifier at its limits (2 ohms per channel) may be the reason why some fancy the sound an amplifier brings forth under the given scenario and, do not the appreciate the sound it offers at 4 ohms or 8 ohms per channel.

 

Best Regards,



Edited by Elliot Thompson - 16 May 2018 at 8:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote csg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 8:58pm
completely subjective point of view here, having owned quite a few PKN 6000's, then moving onto the PLM platform, and latterly to  Powersoft K and X series.

Putting the lack of digital signal distribution and processing capability to one side, my thoughts are that the PKN's are not as capable on bass and sub as the other amps listed. I experienced much enhanced level and improved extension and available headroom when i moved from the PKN's to the Lab PLM's, and then again when i went from the Labs to Powersoft. My next move is to standardise all our racks to X series Powersoft and ill likely start moving on our remaining K series / Void Bias V9 units shortly. 

at the time of changing from the PKN's to the PLM's we were running the Void Arcline infra twin 21" subs which were tuned very low. The performance on the PKN's was distinctly disappointing, the performance on the PLM's was just another league.

as i said at the top, entirely subjective, but to me the PKN's are not capable on bass and sub. Clean yes, but sound light with it. 


Edited by csg - 16 May 2018 at 8:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Speaker Sol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 May 2018 at 10:39pm
This is all very interesting. 

Me thinks I need to use a K10 / 20 in anger and see what happens.

Sol. 
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