Power Distributi&#111;n, Advise sought

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Topic: Power Distribution, Advise sought
Posted: 21 December 2018 at 11:49am

Hello

Distilled down,

the problem is, there are just extension cables everywhere, the stage is a mess.

the proposed solution is using better power distribution.

the question is can you tell me what the perfect distribution box should be, what features should I want, and what should I ignore as a gimmick.

What i'm really looking or is advice on the following:

>What outlets am I most likely to see in venues, (obviously wall sockets.) but I'm really asking, 16A cee form vs 32A ceeform what's most common?

>what am I likely forgetting? - if I'd built this a month ago i'd have just overlooked powercon, and be kicking myself having just bought an amp with powercon connectors!

>what "features" are absolutely useless?

>what "must" I have - I guess this is a question about the law, I'm in the UK, will be building in 2019 and wiring regs 18 will apply.

my basic thoughts so far is:

16 amp, single pahse in. (will I regret not going 32 amp?) - will I regret not going 3 phase?

Connected to an isolator.

Isolator feeds a voltage curren meter on the main feed.

main feed splits to 6 branches,

each branch has a current meter and goes to a different output.

before each socket having a protection device.

outputs sockets being 3x ceeform 16 amp outlets,

5 UK 3 pin sockets.

8 powercon sockets

8 IEC Sockets.

That's 24 outlets total,

for protection devices, do I need an RCD per outlet type (6 RCD) + 24 mcb... or do I need the newer RCBO type devices? (and 24 of them!)

(I may scale down my plans.)

like I say, what's the "perfect" power distribution that is also quite mobile? - I'm guessing a lot of people on here use, or have used such a thing, and I'm trying to avoid making mistakes and having to rebuy later etc.

imageoven

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Posted: 21 December 2018 at 12:04pm

Tell us what its for.

I.E. what kit and where is it in relation to everything else. total power draw is pretty critical but may be two small distros is better than one big one.

Do you want this distro in the back of a rack or is it for people on stage to plug into during set changes etc.

You dont' want IEC outputs, and probably not powercon outputs on a distro.

Edited by imageoven - 21 December 2018 at 12:05pm

Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.

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https://www.essentialsupplies.co.uk/power/32a-imst-distribution-6-x-16a.html

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Posted: 21 December 2018 at 2:02pm

Distro is probably not the word that i'm looking for. - or not the best description.

The long story is.

I play in a band, frequent we're booked by venues without PA.

The expectation for most gigs is that we provide a PA. and that works quite well, for most cases I'd prefer to be using equipment that is known and trusted anyway.

So we have a small PA.

Desk, outboard reverb, crossover, amp for bass, amp for tops, amp for monitors. (occasionally a recorder)

All that stuff needs power, (and this will usually be towards to the back of a stage, or in the corner of the room we're playing in, keeping it out the way.)

Additionally, there is a bass, guitar and keyboard, (they all want backline amps, pedal boards etc.)

LED stage lighting (on poles) and occasional music stand light or Ipads where people want charts etc, and some cameras with mains adapters if we film a performance.

that stuff needs power running all over the place.!

As you can imagine, having all that is something of a mess.

It's a mess behind the amplifiers, a mess behind the desk, a mess over the floor heading out towards the various instruments.

We did a gig last week, and (we were a little more spaced out than normal.) but it was just a mess of extension leads, daisy chained, sometimes swapped out later in a "the long one was first in this chain and the shorter one would do that run, and I need the longer one to get to my amp." or where the keyboard played has a round extension lead, but then the top of power adapters cover other sockets...

OK, a part of the reason for that mess was that there was only a single working socket in the back of the room - we then had to run power from the sides (in the room) down the the side to where the light stands were.

I guess the worry is, one day either: someone will get shocked/injured/killed. or (hopefully before that happens.) someone is going to look at that setup and basically say get that crap out my venue...

It was proper Mickey mouse stuff.

so I want a way to neaten things up, get looking a bit more professional, and add in some safety stuff, (e.g RCD or RCBO)

i guess what I'm thinking is that I want something like this:

or this;

https://www.essentialsupplies.co.uk/power/3-phase-32a-distribution-board-415v.html

Built into a flight case.

but with something like these:

https://www.essentialsupplies.co.uk/power/16a-240v-plug-to-13a-4-gang-permaplug-socket-board.html

https://www.essentialsupplies.co.uk/power/event-power-distribution-units/16a-rubber-box-to-powercon.html

also on a panel in the same flight case...

Other wise i'm just running wires to a box, and then running wires out that box basically to extension leads on the floor... (as we are doing now.)

With the intention being that I can keep the amplifier racks close to that, (amps can plug straight in.)

and have a couple of those boxes (last two links) than I can run as a small breakout to the stage, and another and a small breakout to the lights on one side of the stage etc...

Instead of having a series of these: https://www.essentialsupplies.co.uk/power/6-gang-antisurge-adaptor.html

Whilst I type this out, I think:

I guess it would make sense to put the IEC breakout(input style for most of the amps I have) inside each flight case, than I can run a single cable from a distribution box out to each rack of amps.

Where what I am calling an rack of amps, is really a rack case. so that it can transport easily - we don't have roadies, HGV trucks, or tail lifts! - this stuff needs to be able to fit into a van.

(and this needs to fit into the same van.)

My initial plan is to build this in a flight case sized box so it can stack along with everything else.

I can't find anything exactly as I want anywhere as an off the shelf product, so either I don't know how to describe what I'm looking for (distro is the wrong word), or it's a really stupid idea.

I can't tell you we play a venue where there is a 16amp socket 25 feet from where we site amps. we're playing almost anywhere from coffee places, football clubs, churches, marquees in country houses or town park etc.

the PA system is also not fixed in concrete either. for very small gigs we use a tiny 8 track desk. the gig we did last weekend, (Christmas gig.) we mic'd all instruments, (it's a big band.) and have audio going through a 24 channel console connected to a recorder.

next year I'm thinking of sacking off all that carrying and getting a UI24R.

I'll have a look at the gear later and tell you the theoretical power ratings from the rating plates. - but as I said, we can use a single 13 amp wall socket from a 16amp ring...

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Posted: 21 December 2018 at 4:44pm

Bit of house cleaning 1st.

Build or buy yourself a nice little amp rack which will accommodate a mixer on top. Once that is all together you can have it all wired up so there is a single power cable/socket powering the whole thing. Maybe throw in its own tripper. Would need one of the boys on here to weigh that up for you. But once that is done, and on wheels a lot of your power problems will just be long runs going to par cans and the odd foldback. So I would start there as pointed out having more then one "distro" would be advantageous to you.

...and so much quicker and easier to deploy

....and less messy

If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.

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Posted: 21 December 2018 at 5:14pm

Danielr wrote:

we can use a single 13 amp wall socket from a 16amp ring...

Forget about 32A then.

A 16A input rackmount distro in your biggest amp rack with 13A outputs and a 16 A loop through would be a good place to start. Look at the EMO ones on Canfords site. VDC make similar things.

Unless you need loads of small power in a single rack, avoid IEC outputs on a distro, just use 13A to IEC cables.

I would suggest another for stage power, something like this

and another for lights.

Keep pushing on, things are gonna get better.

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Posted: 21 December 2018 at 8:06pm

imageoven wrote:

Danielr wrote:

we can use a single 13 amp wall socket from a 16amp ring...

Forget about 32A then.

Yes, I was leaning towards 16A ceeform in (because it is all I need "now")...

but I thought I'd ask what's out there, if it turns out the country is littered with 32a outlets I'd be a little frustrated about having to carry adapters everywhere..

efinque wrote:

I'm interested in the subject too..

Most venues/places I've been to had 16A 3-phase. On one outdoor event we needed 32A but it was a long run and the system was rental, the electricity was kindly provided to us from an old fire station (they just opened the doors for us, we did the rest with the tech)

At one point I was thinking of getting a 32->16A adapter just in case.. now that I'm putting together a system I've been looking at rack mount power distributors too, I'm sure for large-scale work one with an amp-meter is worth it but seeing some people's racks here I think one with breakers will do.

With adapters, I'm pretty sure that if you have a 16A outlet on the wall, adapting that to fit a 32A socket, then doing a run with 4mm^2 cable and putting that into your 32a inlet is fine. (provided you are still only drawing 16A of course) - there may be a fuse/mcb rating change needed also when swapping between different capacity supplies...

However I think that there is an issue with taking a 32A outlet, adapting that down to a 16A connector, then running that through either 1.5mm or 2.5mm cables (not rated for 32A) into you equipment with 32A breakers in it, (unless if it an adapter with a fuse in it.) essentially your cable run would be a fire hazard.

That's why I'm entertaining 32A inputs... it fits multiple scenarios with the least complicated adapters.

Conversely, if you can't ever find 32A outlets, anywhere, it's equally pointless to use them on the inlet of the box. (i'd always be using adapters.) - I'll probably always be using a 3pin to ceeform adapter anyway...

mini-mad wrote:

Bit of house cleaning 1st.

Build or buy yourself a nice little amp rack which will accommodate a mixer on top.

that's been a dream for a little while...

Sadly, the big mixer (24/48 console) is 15cm x 94cm x 75cm, it definitely needs a table, (though amp racks can go underneath that.)

If I built a box to contain all the amplifiers and desk pre-wired in a single box, it's have a 100kg, plus box material weight, I have to load the van on my own. :(

If I just tried putting all amps and such in a rack so I could just do main/monitor outs to it it is more manageable, but still ~65Kg, - 70KG. (nothing is SMPS, it's all old iron.)

(that's actually a bit mote tempting though.)

The one box idea is why that soundcraft mixing box I mentioned is tempting though, I could dump that hug 30KG + 8Kg desk, and have a single 4u thing. I'm nervous about loosing physical faders though...

If I had the money to start all this again, (or if this was a business) I'd start again, 1U, multi-channel amps, a nice easy Allen and heath QU series mixbox, lovely digital snakes, light weight control surfaces, it would fit in a single box, and I could carry with one hand and carry the control surface in a suit case in the other hand. I could lift it all myself, and transport it in a hatchback!

But I don't have the money, and I don't work in the business, don't rent gear etc.

imageoven wrote:

Unless you need loads of small power in a single rack, avoid IEC outputs on a distro, just use 13A to IEC cables.

IEC are probably only appealing to me as I work in IT, and these C13 / C14 leads tend to be going begging, (as well as rack mount IEC C13 outputs) at the end of big jobs.)

I also have a bunch of Ceeform 16A to IEC C19 leads...

What draws me away from these however is.. No IP rating on the connector type,

imageoven wrote:

I would suggest another for stage power, something like this

and another for lights.

I think those are basically the boxes I'm going to end up with (on stage and to lights.)

Though again I may opt to "make" them then I can search out IP rated socket covers etc.

That'd would have me covered for both indoor and outdoor use....

mini-mad wrote:

So I would start there as pointed out having more then one "distro" would be advantageous to you.

you mean more than one box that takes a (hopefully ceeform) feed from the venue, or more than one box to convert this now metered protected power into something that a guitar amplifier will connect to?

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Posted: 21 December 2018 at 8:32pm

Ok, I can't find the rating plates on the gear, however, I can list what I have in the PA.

I've read somewhere that if you take the Audio output of an amplifier and multiply that by 1.4 that you'll figure out what the electrical power the device actually needs is (account for the waste heat etc...

I regret asking this question, only because it have forced me to face up to what amounts to a personal problem with buying gear.

so... these are all "worst case" I guess min loading max volume...

Desk, MX8000a, 400W power.

Bass amp, 2400W audio (claimed) - and I don't believe it for a minute, it's a Pulse SPA2400 I'm led to believe that it is basically the same as the old Behringer ep2500, which is also the same as the new re-badged Behringer ep4000, it's right up at the limit where if it achieved it for a fraction of a second you'd be figuring out how to put the smoke back in. anyway... 2400 x 1.4 = 3360w

(there is a clue in the manual,

tops amp, Matrix UKP 1600 (x1.4) = 2240W

monitor Amp, Matrix UKP 1000 (x1.4) = 1400W

Cross over 20W

midiverb 20W

lights (worst case) 26* 12w LED. 312W

Guitar Amp 50W

Bass Amp 50W

Keyboard Amp 50W

7902W electric power needed with everything at full tilt.

/240 = 32.9

/220 (to allow for a worst case scenario with harmonized power)

total = 35.9

Which I guess means technically, I should be putting 63A inlet on it. or multiple phases etc.

though, "we're getting away" with a single 13a supply because we're not doing minimum loading on amplifiers. we're not usually running all lights. we're not turning everything up as loud as it will go... - it's a jazz band, "it's not up to 11" situations.

(clearly using about 1/3rd - 1/4 capacity.) -I guess I'd know if I had a nice metered power distribution box!!

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Posted: 22 December 2018 at 3:50am

Without going into grossly minute detail, hit me up over on FB at Guildford Cable Company.

Not sure on Forum rules about that but it's in the interest of a member not getting shafted for decent power distro so it's gotta slide ;)

TL;DR
Don't pay attention to any 'advice' posted by "Effin' 'Eck" *rolls eyes*

www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk

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Posted: 22 December 2018 at 8:46am

Danielr wrote:

I've read somewhere that if you take the Audio output of an amplifier and multiply that by 1.4 that you'll figure out what the electrical power the device actually needs is (account for the waste heat etc...

That calculation would be about right if you were playing a constant sine wave tone.

The actual power draw depends on the program material being played.

With live jazz, even running all your amps flat out, you will draw MUCH less than the theoretical maximum.

We run an amp rack (playing prerecorded music with a higher duty cycle than live music) with more than twice the power rating of all of your amps combined, from a 13amp supply and have never tripped the fuse.

The setup imageoven suggests (16amp distros) will be fine. If you play a venue with a 32amp socket, just use a 13a socket instead with a 13a > 16a adapter as your feed.

If weight is an issue I would rack up your crossover, monitor and top amps with a rack mount distro in a single case - that should be a 1 man lift into the van.

You can then run power to your bass amp from an outlet on the rack mount distro, possibly also to your desk.

Edited by colinmono - 22 December 2018 at 9:02am

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Posted: 22 December 2018 at 10:18am

colinmono wrote:

That calculation would be about right if you were playing a constant sine wave tone.

The actual power draw depends on the program material being played.

With live jazz, even running all your amps flat out, you will draw MUCH less than the theoretical maximum.

The setup imageoven suggests (16amp distros) will be fine. If you play a venue with a 32amp socket, just use a 13a socket instead with a 13a > 16a adapter as your feed.

If weight is an issue I would rack up your crossover, monitor and top amps with a rack mount distro in a single case - that should be a 1 man lift into the van.

You can then run power to your bass amp from an outlet on the rack mount distro, possibly also to your desk.

+100

I regularly run:

1 x Crest 9200

3 x Crest 7001

1 x Urei MPA300

As well as desk, crossover & some outboard, backline and various LED lighting off a single 16A EU style Schuko socket. Absolutely no problem. Just make sure that your main power feed is a decent cable & section, ie 2,5mm.

Stage distribution is then just a matter of simple logic. Stick a couple of 4, or 6-ways at the back of the stage and take what you need off those - not daisy-chaining randomly! Confused

Earplugs Are For Wimps!

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Posted: 22 December 2018 at 12:28pm

colinmono wrote:

That calculation would be about right if you were playing a constant sine wave tone.

Sorry, to clarify, I guess my question was should I be sizing the input for this theoretical maximum, (that I just know I'll never use.) or can do I size for my use case... - question answered, 16A is fine.

colinmono wrote:

If weight is an issue I would rack up your crossover, monitor and top amps with a rack mount distro in a single case - that should be a 1 man lift into the van.

You can then run power to your bass amp from an outlet on the rack mount distro, possibly also to your desk.

I think that's probably the winner, As mini-mad also said, house keeping first. re-arrange the equipment a little.

feed power into a rack, with other equipment, then also feed power out into other boxes that I can lift and out to the desk.

Individual outlets to run breakout boxes to the stage.

RoadRunnersDust wrote:

Without going into grossly minute detail, hit me up over on FB at Guildford Cable Company.Not sure on Forum rules about that but it's in the interest of a member not getting shafted for decent power distro so it's gotta slide ;)
TL;DR
Don't pay attention to any 'advice' posted by "Effin' 'Eck" *rolls eyes*

Thankyou, - i'll find you guys on facebook later on.

I'm still kind of hoping that I can DIY this, (just looking at the prices of the commercial units that are advertising prices.)

which is going to make this sound a bit odd...

efinque wrote:

That's because I've become accustomed to active systems.

My first rig was all passive though. I got a 16A three-phase IEC split from a local company that does electricity work, I called them and visited their office/warehouse and told them what I'd be using, and they recommended that.

I know it's a bit weird for someone to come to a forum asking advise then suddenly act like some sort of authority, but please do listen to this.

The questions I'm asking are, basically wanting product reviews on features to see what is useful, I'm coming to a place with a thousand guys who have worked a thousand venues, that's doing a quick straw poll of the power available in a million venues, just to decide what inlet makes best sense.

I'm also asking about the legal situation specific to the country where I am (which is different to where you are.)

And about updates to the law regarding wiring. - now this is a bit cheeky because I could just go spend £60 on the 18th edition wiring regulations.

I could also have gone and logged in at the IET forums and asked a bunch of electrical working professionals - I chose not to as I find speakerplans a friendlier community.

What you are saying about active and passive systems in this context just makes no sense.

I get that you want to build your own one of these, but, you really do need to understand what you are doing.

5 pin three phase (L1, L2, L3, N + E) converting to single phase sockets (L1 + N + E) + (L2 + N + E) + (L3 + N + E) are not unusual items, they are safe but you do need to keep in mind how you are loading the different phases.

also that whilst the L1 - N potential is 220v, you L1 - L2 potential is 400v, and this has implications for the conductors that you use, and the insulation on that conductor.

Basically, as I said, I'm not coming asking for advise, and then acting like an authority on the subject. But I am saying this:

If you make a speaker badly (and I'm not saying you are!) - then the worst that happens is that it sounds bad.

If you make power distribution badly (and I'm not saying you will!) - then the worst that happens is hundreds die in a fire. (and make no mistake, if hundreds die in a fire due to your wiring YOU did that, it's not an accident, it is your negligence.)

I'm not saying don't DIY it, (that's what I want to do.) what I'm saying is check your local laws, understand the wiring requirements, understand the safety aspects, understand the regulation. understand the physics behind it. also, understand what the laws behind the inspection of the circuits are.

And bear in mind at the end of all of it, you still need to plug that in to someone else's power in someone elses building.

In the UK, there will be someone nominated, (or as a default position the person in charge.) who is "in charge" of the electrical safety inside their business, if they are found to be negligent, etc, if people die, both the fines and the prison time, are "unlimited" in the legislation.- I can't say what the laws are where you are.

Basically, If I show up at a venue with unsafe equipment, the venue owner allows me to plug it in, and hundreds die in a fire, both me and the venue owner will be going to prison.

(so if you DIY, you must bear in mind that you may be opening a can of worms filled with disappointment.)

you need to know the laws, the physics, and do a good enough job, (and carry the right paperwork) that you'll even be able to use the thing...

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