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MattStolton View Drop Down
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Joined: 04 September 2010
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Points: 4234 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2017 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by RoadRunnersDust RoadRunnersDust wrote:

Are you implying that you intend to shoot 415v down a Blue Commando?

Or is 300/500V Suddenly not rated to carry UK Single Phase anymore?


I wouldn't intentionally put 415V over a blue Cee, who would, but, in a bizarre, should-have-been-designed-and-tested-so-it-couldn't-happen, fault you may thank that extra level of protection.

Equally if both LV and SELV and data are all rated to 600V insulation, they can co-exist in same duct, electrically to regs, ignoring induced effects into your DMX/Data. No segregation required. You wouldn't because you will get induced EMF in your data, but you could. Most belden data cable is rated to 600V.

3183A Artic Grade (Often yellow on building sites) is a unique to UK cable, so not harmonised, but designed for 55-0-55 110V use only, and down to -25degC They are not rated for 240V use at all, despite what colour the outside may imply. BS6500 cables ("PVC") are rated down to +5degC.

So anything other than H07 (My bad 450/750V rated, not 400/700) is not suitable. Equally, mentioning {7.3.1} [522] mentions a requirement to ensure that all cables are suitably protected against weather effects; water, temperature, exposure to solar radiation, and mechanical like impact, vibration and abrasion. Again, only H07 RNF really meets that. Thermoplastic cannot handle that lot.

So.

DJ down dog and duck. He will buy a 4 way reel from B&Q or Ebay, probably leave it wound up, but only pull 300W through it and get away with it. He is unlikely to ever PAT his gear anyway, his fuses will be chewing gum wrappers, and hasn't got PLI, just a really fast, untaxed, uninsured transit to make his getaway in. If you want to be that bloke, your choice.

However, in any other circumstance, given that someone has bothered to author BS7909, and indeed, OP asked "how to", then f*ck yeah H07.

Standards raise the game, and inform on "Best Practice". Why wouldn't you?
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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valve head777 View Drop Down
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Points: 1781 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote valve head777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2017 at 8:26pm
Just powered a cafe at a festival with my solar kit. I don't like being embarrassed by the electrical sign off, red face is amateur. Ho7 all the way, inside and out.
Relax and keep calm...
Freedom of choice, choice of freedom.
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cookie-dj View Drop Down
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Points: 977 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cookie-dj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2017 at 8:35am
Just had the usual PAT testing done, I used a new tester as she was a local business. I quickly gathered she was a "week course warrior" and didn't even notice my 3x 2.5mm H07 stuffed into the duraplug extensions and plugs. Passed with no issues. It was slightly concerning that she said if the appliance plugs in and works, she only needs to test the removable lead.
I'm no expert but surely the Portable APPLIANCE test requires testing the appliance as well as the lead? None of my amps were properly inspected for earth leakage (and they are my biggest fire risk really)
Ah well, she's the competent person and if I have an equipment fire due to something that should have been picked up on the PAT test, surely she's liable?
You can't polish a turd!
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MattStolton View Drop Down
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Points: 4234 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2017 at 10:26am
Originally posted by cookie-dj cookie-dj wrote:

Just had the usual PAT testing done, I used a new tester as she was a local business. I quickly gathered she was a "week course warrior" and didn't even notice my 3x 2.5mm H07 stuffed into the duraplug extensions and plugs. Passed with no issues. It was slightly concerning that she said if the appliance plugs in and works, she only needs to test the removable lead.
I'm no expert but surely the Portable APPLIANCE test requires testing the appliance as well as the lead? None of my amps were properly inspected for earth leakage (and they are my biggest fire risk really)
Ah well, she's the competent person and if I have an equipment fire due to something that should have been picked up on the PAT test, surely she's liable?

Incompetent!

Lead set is an appliance. Amplifier is separate appliance.

I would flash test power lead to test insulation at HT, and then treat anything AV as "IT", so soft earth leakage test (nice to know so you can plan earth leakage through your distro) with no Flash test.

All in the IET 4th Ed. Regs, Nov 2012. Or the EHA/HAE equivalent Regs of similar vintage, although less prescriptive.
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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MattStolton View Drop Down
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Points: 4234 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2017 at 10:56am
Don't forget the main reason to PAT in the first place is to demonstrate maintenance of the electrical appliance.

The idea is that over time (what "time" is now down to your risk assessment of interval between testing), you measure the appliance, and look for any changes in recorded values, which would imply a failing or failure of something.

And don't forget, especially in a "Hire" environment, you are excluded from the IET regs, and now fall under EHA/HAE version, which is an even worse document.

These measurements are retained, most conveniently on a certificate per appliance, a) to prove "maintenance" and gets you out of jail to EaW/PUWER regs and requirements to maintain (these are legal requirements) b) to show stuffy hotels who insist on seeing them before you plug into their dodgy mains supply....

Green stickers mean sh*te. Just a tracking code, so you can fill in the correct certificate next time around. And to advertise your PAT service!

There is a C&G in "PAT testing", and a separate "Management of PAT", usually taught at the same time, and should include copy of IET regs. Anything else is meaningless, and there are plenty who argue that the C&G is pretty poor.

(Found them:

1. City and Guilds 2377-32 Management Requirements for the Maintenance of Electrical Equipment.

2. City and Guilds 2377-22 In-Service Inspection and Testing of Electrical Equipment.)
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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MattStolton View Drop Down
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Points: 4234 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2017 at 11:07am
Originally posted by cookie-dj cookie-dj wrote:


Ah well, she's the competent person and if I have an equipment fire due to something that should have been picked up on the PAT test, surely she's liable?
  
Sticky area.

She has demonstrated gross incompetence, verging on negligence. 

I would demand it was done correctly, or get a full refund. And demand to see her qualifications that make her "competent" and how much experience she may have that would imply "skilled". Did she give you some form of recorded table/certificate of readings per appliance? Or just whack a sticker on?

Further more PAT is just a recording of values of measurement (and physical condition). If you see a change in values, it implies you need to maintain your appliance. Her service seems to be to generate some values (although not enough). As owner of appliance used for commercial gain (Hence under EaW act and PUWER regs), you then need to interpret these results and organise a maintenance regime to suit. So you need to manage the PAT. She is just a ('n incompetent?) tester.
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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Points: 977 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cookie-dj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2017 at 11:12am
She's basically put a sticker on all of the leads and I'm due to receive a cert any day now.
Her testing equipment was just a machine that she plugs stuff into. It gives you a green tick for a pass or a red cross for a fail.
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MattStolton View Drop Down
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Points: 4234 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattStolton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2017 at 11:29am
Originally posted by cookie-dj cookie-dj wrote:

She's basically put a sticker on all of the leads and I'm due to receive a cert any day now.
Her testing equipment was just a machine that she plugs stuff into. It gives you a green tick for a pass or a red cross for a fail.

Sounds like she hasn't got a scoob. Also sounds like her machine is a very basic thing designed just to test BS1363 plugs to IEC leads, not to actually test "appliances", i.e has probe points for earth bonding measurements or flash test probe. May not even be able to Flash test?

Ask her whether she tested the leads as class 1 or 2? Bung her a BS1363 to "telefunken" ("figure 8" 2 pole IEC, i.e. Class 2, no earth pole) and see if she tries to earth bond test it. It should "fail".

It should have a memory, where what test measurements were actually carried out, should be recorded, with the values. If given a unique appliance code or bar code, next time the same machine does the test, it should store to same "file".

Without viewing the "file", to show change over time, absolutely feckin' pointless. Total waste of time and money.
Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - Wilding Sound Ltd
"Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains"
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njw View Drop Down
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Points: 2574 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote njw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2017 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by cookie-dj cookie-dj wrote:

She's basically put a sticker on all of the leads and I'm due to receive a cert any day now.
Her testing equipment was just a machine that she plugs stuff into. It gives you a green tick for a pass or a red cross for a fail.
  

 And you paid her how much to do that?? 
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njw View Drop Down
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Points: 2574 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote njw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2017 at 11:00pm
.......Laptop doing funny things again...........

Edited by njw - 02 September 2017 at 11:01pm
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RobinMatrix View Drop Down
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Points: 567 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RobinMatrix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2017 at 12:19am
I have in the past seen people replace 13A fuses with the sleeve part of a 1/4" jack plug ... Shocked
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dylan-penguinmedia View Drop Down
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Points: 4575 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dylan-penguinmedia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2017 at 7:42am
Haha reminds me of an install I was doing a few weeks ago - the chippie wondered why his chop saw wasn't working so i said I'd take a look.
Fuse had been replaced by a PZ2 hex bit... good for about 2000 amps I reckon, but wasn't sat quite right in the fuse holder.
When the labourer was asked what the fk he was playing at, he just shrugged and said "is good!"

No mate. Isn't good!
Put a 13a fuse in it for him and it was fine.
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