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Powersoft X4 real power

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Elliot Thompson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 August 2019 at 4:23pm
With loudspeakers it is about understanding the TS Parameters and how they will interact in the enclosure. Amplifiers delivering 1000 watts continuous have been around since the 1990's. Possibly the root of the problem is trying to extract too much power out the least amount of boxes hence, ending up with burnt voice coils.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jhodas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 August 2019 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by PolymorphicMark PolymorphicMark wrote:

If the Powersoft X4 is been tested with a restive load then one thing will be neglected. The poweroft class-D's regenerate the power supply from the back EMF generated by inductive speaker, this will happen most effectively on subs as the inductance would be very high at the speaker box resonance.

I understand that this would mean in real world the amp could sustain high output for much longer.

What do the electronic experts think of this?


This is the single most informed post here IMHO. Class Ds do all sorts of wizardry, but missing fundamentals isn't part of it. 
Numbers tell part of the story. Standing in front of a trio of obertons that are literally shaking the water in your bottle and making the beer in your stomach fizz forcing you to burp, well that's the other part. 
Anyone with any doubt about powersoft's power output, go catch Iration or Word Sound and Power. Both have a brace of X8s in their racks. 

Robert Tribulation made his CD player skip once. You need more than a 10ms burst to do that. 
Until the Lions have their own historians, tales of hunting will always glorify the hunter.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sinai Sound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 August 2019 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Jhodas Jhodas wrote:

Originally posted by PolymorphicMark PolymorphicMark wrote:

If the Powersoft X4 is been tested with a restive load then one thing will be neglected. The poweroft class-D's regenerate the power supply from the back EMF generated by inductive speaker, this will happen most effectively on subs as the inductance would be very high at the speaker box resonance.

I understand that this would mean in real world the amp could sustain high output for much longer.

What do the electronic experts think of this?


This is the single most informed post here IMHO. Class Ds do all sorts of wizardry, but missing fundamentals isn't part of it. 
Numbers tell part of the story. Standing in front of a trio of obertons that are literally shaking the water in your bottle and making the beer in your stomach fizz forcing you to burp, well that's the other part. 
Anyone with any doubt about powersoft's power output, go catch Iration or Word Sound and Power. Both have a brace of X8s in their racks. 

Robert Tribulation made his CD player skip once. You need more than a 10ms burst to do that. 

I've got an 2 x X8 and a 1 x X4

6 x PD1852 scoops managed to dislodged lights out of a roof in a pretty damned big venue in Spain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cgengineering Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2019 at 11:19am
Hi Viktor,
Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

Exactly, We have seen that there are capacitors after the fuses. However the size of caps and calculated stored energy levels define the maximum possible currents. 130A is possible for a milli-second or so.. and even you have let us say above 100A peak current per channel the Voltage of capacitor bank decay pretty quickly due lack of charging power from the power supply.

Did you consider all the capacitors in the amp and compared the rail voltages to the effective voltage needed to bring 5200W on 2ohms? The energy delta is very high: increasing rail voltages you have a quadratic energy rise.
The power supply, due to its PFC behaviour, can't react before one mains cycle or so, and when reacts it can bring a lot a power more than its thermal limit

Quote
I would not even think that these X4 amps would have better effeciency than any other Class-D, they just simply low average power rated and therefore no need for serious cooling neither heatsinkings..

They are designed for music over loudspeakers, not sine waves over resistors

Have a good one
C.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote U.Viktor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2019 at 2:31pm
Powersoft X4 has 56pcs 1000uF 160VDC Electrolyte capacitors inside.

Total possible stored energy is: E = 0.5 * C * U^2  so E = 0.5 * 0.056F * 160V^2 == 716.8J
( due to the typical charge distribution of real electrolyte capacitors this value can be +/- 10-20%.. different)

So without power supply, neglecting losses  P = E / t = 716.8J / 1s = 716.8W is the deliverable power until caps fully discharged.
for 0.1s (100ms) it would be = 7168W
while for 0.05s (50ms | Exact 1 period of single 20Hz signal) P = 14336W

However these would mean that the capacitor bank is fully discharged, which condition is a kind of total useless for an audio amplifier :-)

Let us define a starting Voltage level prior loading U1, where the Enegry stored is E1 and then
a discharged state of U2 with E2 stored energy where the available power is 50% of the rated.
It would mean that U1= 160VDC
U2= 113VDC
So delta E i= E1 - E2
We already know that E1 is 716.8J
then calculated E2 = 0.5 * 0.056F * 113V^2 = 357.5J

delta E = E1 - E2 =  716.8J - 357.5J = 359.3J

delta E is 359.3J only what would mean :
359.3W support for the weak power supply for 1 second duration
3593W support for the weak power supply for 0.1 second duration
7168W support for the weak power supply for 0.05 second duration

It is not miracle just very simple physics, do not believe marketing lies.
We were not able to measure its rated specs, nowhere near.. Not a surprise!

So delivering 20KW would be possible (optimal calculations˘neglecting all the conversion losses ) for 5-6ms only then the amp collapses immediately.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BJtheDJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2019 at 4:51pm
What next?? You're going to tell us that it's impossible for Bumble Bees to fly, and prove it mathematically ??


Edited by BJtheDJ - 04 September 2019 at 4:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 September 2019 at 5:40pm
Thanks, can you now show the measurements from a PKN 3PHASE or H8?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2019 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by toastyghost toastyghost wrote:

Thanks, can you now show the measurements from a PKN 3PHASE or H8?





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonskulus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2019 at 6:13am
Some of us are thinking rms means continuous power, but who said so?
RMS rating can be 10ms sine wave burst or 5 minutes continuous. 
Peak power is usually "square wave" output, calculated from maximum peak voltage which is 1.41 x RMS voltage. 





Edited by Tonskulus - 06 September 2019 at 6:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonB67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 September 2019 at 11:20am
Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

Let us define a starting Voltage level prior loading U1, where the Enegry stored is E1 and then
a discharged state of U2 with E2 stored energy where the available power is 50% of the rated.
It would mean that U1= 160VDC
U2= 113VDC
So delta E i= E1 - E2
We already know that E1 is 716.8J
then calculated E2 = 0.5 * 0.056F * 113V^2 = 357.5J

delta E = E1 - E2 =  716.8J - 357.5J = 359.3J

delta E is 359.3J only what would mean :
359.3W support for the weak power supply for 1 second duration
3593W support for the weak power supply for 0.1 second duration
7168W support for the weak power supply for 0.05 second duration

It is not miracle just very simple physics, do not believe marketing lies.
We were not able to measure its rated specs, nowhere near.. Not a surprise!

So delivering 20KW would be possible (optimal calculations˘neglecting all the conversion losses ) for 5-6ms only then the amp collapses immediately.


So is this a realistic world condition then victor? How does it compare to other amps. Mc2, crown, crest, void etc?

While i lack the technical knowledge to really understand it i follow the maths,  and as you say, physics dont lie. 

But either if an amp is
1) comparable calculated output to what else is available (i don't mean pkn, i mean what most guys are using) and
2) does the job well

Surely theres no issue?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote U.Viktor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2019 at 3:09pm
Crown I-tech and newer MA series has some power levels not extremely inflated,
some of them can deliver 25-50% of their nominal power for at least 2-3seconds.
Not on 2 Ohms of course :-)

What we are using XE series PKN can do 60-70% of their nominal power level for several seconds.

Currently the H8 what We have seen the largest sustained capability amp with 63A 230Vac inlet.
Pulled out 72A or something and delivered 2* 7600W continuous 1KHz to the 2.xR loads.
But expensive and maybe not necessary where other XE amps can perform well on much lower cost..

Thing is that I would use two of 4R loaded amps instead of a single 2R loaded.


Edited by U.Viktor - 11 September 2019 at 3:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2019 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

Let us define a starting Voltage level prior loading U1, where the Enegry stored is E1 and then
a discharged state of U2 with E2 stored energy where the available power is 50% of the rated.
It would mean that U1= 160VDC
U2= 113VDC
So delta E i= E1 - E2
We already know that E1 is 716.8J
then calculated E2 = 0.5 * 0.056F * 113V^2 = 357.5J

delta E = E1 - E2 =  716.8J - 357.5J = 359.3J

delta E is 359.3J only what would mean :
359.3W support for the weak power supply for 1 second duration
3593W support for the weak power supply for 0.1 second duration
7168W support for the weak power supply for 0.05 second duration

It is not miracle just very simple physics, do not believe marketing lies.
We were not able to measure its rated specs, nowhere near.. Not a surprise!

So delivering 20KW would be possible (optimal calculations˘neglecting all the conversion losses ) for 5-6ms only then the amp collapses immediately.



So is this a realistic world condition then victor? How does it compare to other amps. Mc2, crown, crest, void etc?

While i lack the technical knowledge to really understand it i follow the maths,  and as you say, physics dont lie. 

But either if an amp is
1) comparable calculated output to what else is available (i don't mean pkn, i mean what most guys are using) and
2) does the job well

Surely theres no issue?


I would strongly suggest looking up the Production Partner tests for the X4, 44M20 and LabG 12K44, LA12X, amongst others for a better, well documented, trustworthy and independent test of an amplifier’s full feature set.

Edited by toastyghost - 11 September 2019 at 5:37pm
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