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Powersoft X4 - Used asking prices

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote concept-10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2018 at 1:20pm
Agreed, hate to see a newbie take some of this advice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2018 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 
Hey MarjanM with the time we have spent together here since lordly knows when, you are the last man I’d expect to do something like that , did the amp work afterwards. Or did it die ? And how many drivers are there in the boxes . Cause the amps don’t do what they shouldn’t, 

Well, the amp is fine. it was the first time i ever used the X4, and i decided to give it hell.
Our M4.18s are loaded with a variant of 18NLW9601, so in theory X4 could run 8 of them, two per channel at 4 ohm. Obviousley this is not enough power (1500W per driver) but i was curious to see what it would do. So i pushed it to its limit and it went to protect mode. Recovered very fast, and it did sounded rather well. For some less powerful drivers, it will work just fine if you set the limiters properly.
But for high power 18s/21s you better look for something with more power.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2018 at 4:19pm

Possibly, I am overlooking something here.

 

The Powersoft X4 specification states;

 

“Current Draw

1/8 Maximum Output Power @ 4 ohms, 9A RMS, 240 volts”

 

9 Amps under a 240 volt line source is around 2178 watts total output power or 544.50 watts per channel under a 4 channel amplifier @ 4 ohms.

 

Powersoft X4 specification sheet also states;

 

“The power figure is calculated by driving and loading symmetrically all the channels: uneven loads allow to achieve highest performance.”

 

Just what is written above (which appears to be a disclaimer) tells me that the Powersoft X4 shares the power supply amongst all four channels. Hence the reason you can extract more power (hypothetically speaking) from the output of channel one while channels 2, 3 and, 4 will not meet up to the advertised specs.

 

Best Regards,  

Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2018 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by jbl_man jbl_man wrote:

Yup.

Mr Efinque, im sure you mean well, but posting random nonsense about building amp-destroying-crossovers in someone else's thread, that has no relevance at all to the topic is annoying.

Maybe best to confine your "projects" to your own Dance stack thread, that way we can have all the sillyness in one place. Thumbs Up

Well said Ian---Not been on here very long and within a short space of time has gone from a newbie with very little knowledge to an "expert" on almost every section of the forum!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Father-Francis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 December 2018 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 
Hey MarjanM with the time we have spent together here since lordly knows when, you are the last man I’d expect to do something like that , did the amp work afterwards. Or did it die ? And how many drivers are there in the boxes . Cause the amps don’t do what they shouldn’t, 

Well, the amp is fine. it was the first time i ever used the X4, and i decided to give it hell.
Our M4.18s are loaded with a variant of 18NLW9601, so in theory X4 could run 8 of them, two per channel at 4 ohm. Obviousley this is not enough power (1500W per driver) but i was curious to see what it would do. So i pushed it to its limit and it went to protect mode. Recovered very fast, and it did sounded rather well. For some less powerful drivers, it will work just fine if you set the limiters properly.
But for high power 18s/21s you better look for something with more power.
That’s what I said I’ve only run 8x21” on it that’s two per ch , I try to learn from the elderly Pro’s many years back Tony (ASS) said run run your bass in 4&8 ohm to get the best out of them , so I try to keep it there whenever I can. Worst case 2.6 so even thu I know I can run 8 pd2151 off the K20 I prefer 6 bins max . That way longer life for everything. 
Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2018 at 10:37am
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:




<p ="Msonormal">Possibly, I am overlooking something here.



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">The Powersoft X4 specification states;



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">“Current Draw



<p ="Msonormal">1/8 Maximum Output Power @ 4 ohms, 9A RMS, 240 volts”



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">9 Amps under a 240 volt line source is around 2178 watts
total output power or 544.50 watts per channel under a 4 channel amplifier @ 4
ohms.



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">Powersoft X4 specification sheet also states;



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">“The power figure is calculated by driving and loading symmetrically
all the channels: uneven loads allow to achieve highest performance.”



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">Just what is written above (which appears to be a
disclaimer) tells me that the Powersoft X4 shares the power supply amongst all
four channels. Hence the reason you can extract more power (hypothetically
speaking) from the output of channel one while channels 2, 3 and, 4 will not
meet up to the advertised specs.



<p ="Msonormal"><o:p> </o:p>



<p ="Msonormal">Best Regards, <span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>




Modern amps do not pull all of their power directly from the wall as it is demanded by the drivers, and have not for a long time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toastyghost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2018 at 10:41am
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Originally posted by Father-Francis Father-Francis wrote:

Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

To be fair, i managed to completely shot down an X4 driving 8 of our subs. Which never happened with a K20. 

Hey MarjanM with the time we have spent together here since lordly knows when, you are the last man I’d expect to do something like that , did the amp work afterwards. Or did it die ? And how many drivers are there in the boxes . Cause the amps don’t do what they shouldn’t, 


Well, the amp is fine. it was the first time i ever used the X4, and i decided to give it hell.
Our M4.18s are loaded with a variant of 18NLW9601, so in theory X4 could run 8 of them, two per channel at 4 ohm. Obviousley this is not enough power (1500W per driver) but i was curious to see what it would do. So i pushed it to its limit and it went to protect mode. Recovered very fast, and it did sounded rather well. For some less powerful drivers, it will work just fine if you set the limiters properly.
But for high power 18s/21s you better look for something with more power.


Thermal shutdown yeah? That’s why I suggest X8 for sub, the thermal capability is way higher even just from physical space inside. But even then, putting your rack together in a way that you can run your subs from one or two channels of each amp and the mods and highs on the others is not just making better use of the amp and power supply but also better redundancy in the event of failure.

Out of curiosity what voltage and current was each channel pushing? And how much louder does the box really go above that level?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Father-Francis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2018 at 11:12am
Thermal shutdown yeah? That’s why I suggest X8 for sub, the thermal capability is way higher even just from physical space inside. But even then, putting your rack together in a way that you can run your subs from one or two channels of each amp and the mods and highs on the others is not just making better use of the amp and power supply but also better redundancy in the event of failure.
Out of curiosity what voltage and current was each channel pushing? And how much louder does the box really go above that level?
Yo Toastyghost, the setup that I like most out of what i’ve Got now is using K6 on sub that’s 4*k6 to our8* 21” ,K20 on the on the 8*118i call lowerkicks cos me like them running from 60-110, x4 runs two Chs 4*215 or6*115 and the 10”s in the Res3sh,then we have the M50Q to run hi’s , sounds f””king good , like you said earlier in some post ,I or let’s say we are getting upgrade on all K6’s to K10 with dsp am yet to hear from Powersoft, if the boards are too old for dsp they said some are got had to send production dates and numbers, then I think it’l be Nice with 4*2151pd’s on each k10. Two x4’s running the rest of the sound , maybe get the X8 and X4 for lightweight jobs since we’l be Running 6way system, since 2007 we only lost two drivers to dry hire , which is still to high in my books , 
Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarjanM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2018 at 11:21am
Kyle, it wasnt a very scientific test because it was freezing outside. Now you get the idea how hard i pushed it when i managed to thermal it at arround zero celsius outside.
No limiters applied.
Marjan Milosevic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote U.Viktor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2018 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Possibly, I am overlooking something here.

The Powersoft X4 specification states;

“Current Draw

1/8 Maximum Output Power @ 4 ohms, 9A RMS, 240 volts”

9 Amps under a 240 volt line source is around 2178 watts total output power or 544.50 watts per channel under a 4 channel amplifier @ 4 ohms.

Powersoft X4 specification sheet also states;

“The power figure is calculated by driving and loading symmetrically all the channels: uneven loads allow to achieve highest performance.”

Just what is written above (which appears to be a disclaimer) tells me that the Powersoft X4 shares the power supply amongst all four channels. Hence the reason you can extract more power (hypothetically speaking) from the output of channel one while channels 2, 3 and, 4 will not meet up to the advertised specs.

Best Regards,  



Based on the specifications of the speakers (AES) the amplifier must be able to deliver _at least_ 1/4 sustained power of the nominal value, so a "20KW class amp"  need to be able to provide at least 5KW long-term average on the output. If you have let us say 90% power conversion efficiency (keep in mind 90% is VERY HIGH, power supply + amplifier parts added in chain!) I consider that the amp has *enough* , properly sized energy storage inside to smoothen ripples caused by crest factor of the signal.
So in this case the amp must be able to pull out 5500W from the mains, just to be able to fit the very basic power requirements of the speakers.
From our measurements & experience I would say that at least 50% average capability vs. nominal power for minimumt ~10s is required to properly drive power hungry type of speakers!
Here you see that Powersoft X4 is seriously undersized for demanding type of applications.

I would think that the extra "softness and warmth" coming form your subs on the X4 it is because the rails already started to collapsing, the amp loosing control of the voice coils, free-floating membranes have some kind of similar effect.
However an amp with loosing damping means random phase operating radiators which is the last thing I want to see/hear in the system! Keep in mind that with random phase radiators you loosing coherency of your speakers, effectively damning overall sound quality and SPL.

We have not touched the X8 for testing but what I have been informed it is two X!4 in the same 2RU.
Maybe bigger fans and different case arrangement  have better cooling but same PSU and Amp modules used, particuliary the amp has very undersized fuses, and lack of proper heatsink due there is NO serious power in the system ;-) that is it.

You might be fooled when testing 1-2 channels with low duty cycle materials it could work well but once want to get some serious power (do not forget it is called, priced as a "20KW amp" !)  it will collapsing pretty quickly, and can not deliver the required SPL and headroom.


Edited by U.Viktor - 27 December 2018 at 12:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elliot Thompson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2018 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by U.Viktor U.Viktor wrote:

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

Possibly, I am overlooking something here.

The Powersoft X4 specification states;

“Current Draw

1/8 Maximum Output Power @ 4 ohms, 9A RMS, 240 volts”

9 Amps under a 240 volt line source is around 2178 watts total output power or 544.50 watts per channel under a 4 channel amplifier @ 4 ohms.

Powersoft X4 specification sheet also states;

“The power figure is calculated by driving and loading symmetrically all the channels: uneven loads allow to achieve highest performance.”

Just what is written above (which appears to be a disclaimer) tells me that the Powersoft X4 shares the power supply amongst all four channels. Hence the reason you can extract more power (hypothetically speaking) from the output of channel one while channels 2, 3 and, 4 will not meet up to the advertised specs.

Best Regards,  



Based on the specifications of the speakers (AES) the amplifier must be able to deliver _at least_ 1/4 sustained power of the nominal value, so a "20KW class amp"  need to be able to provide at least 5KW long-term average on the output.


I do not know any major amplifier manufacture that uses sustained power of 1/3rd duty cycle anymore. Many American amplifier manufactures began abandoning the idea by the 1990's. Having 1/8th duty cycle long term seems synonymous globally today.

Best Regards, 
Elliot Thompson
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote csg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 December 2018 at 5:56pm
all of this is academic - they work, and they work fantastically well providing that you share your channels across frequency bands as has been written. That said, i did use 2 off X8's to drive 8 off 218 subs ( so one 18" driver per channel) for a job a couple of days before Christmas and it sounded breathtaking! But, at 8Ω a channel its an easy task for a unit like this.

There are plenty of other options for those who prefer a different path, no skin of my nose.

I too have found the thermal capacity of the X8 superior and have started standardising onto it as a result. 24ch touring racks with a 32A 3ø inlet, XLR/ Veam in's, Speakon and Soca outs all in a 10RU rack make a lot of sense to me!

Look at the cost of the X8 as a complete management / processing / signal distro / amplifier unit split into 8 channels - its a complete bargain as far as i am concerned.
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