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MT121 & FANE LONGTHROW COMBO, any advice welcome,

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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=100600
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Topic: MT121 & FANE LONGTHROW COMBO, any advice welcome,
Posted By: Hz so good
Subject: MT121 & FANE LONGTHROW COMBO, any advice welcome,
Date Posted: 04 November 2017 at 1:20pm
Hi all, I'm new here so please bear with me for any errors, I've been reading forums and researching for a while now, I set out sometime ago with the intention of building a rig, I am now financially set to get the ball rolling, in between I have had tons of ideas etc but what I'm most sold on are folded horns and flared horns, basically anything you can't see the drivers, to start with I'm wanting to have a smallish rig for venues of 200 -250 people max, aesthetically I like the look of a fane 15 longthrow horn with one or two MT121 on top, either side front of house, 
I have the original FANE book which states the longthrow goes down to 60hz and as high as 700, and I have read the MT121 covers 160hz to 1.6khz in the mids and 1.6khz and beyond in the highs, I'm happy with that I know it's only 3 way and not 4 way, if any one wants to add their input please do as every bit of knowledge helps, thanks in advance, 




Replies:
Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 04 November 2017 at 4:06pm
60hz isnt very low?

Im already thinking of changing my 15" subs into kick bins and sitting them on some 18s as i want more sub 40hz content.



Posted By: Jo bg
Date Posted: 04 November 2017 at 4:08pm
HI
for what kind of music? 60 to 700 hz sounds like a mid bass cabinet, you need a subwoofer under that unless you play acoustic jazz or this is a 12 volt rig, else you are shooting at around 40 hz, or less if your style of music demnds it.
i don't know the fane longthrows, but it does not sound like a good match to mt121,  if it goes up to 700 hz you are wasting energy with a lot of overlap (70 -700 and 160-1.6), you could do with a smaller top than mt121;
in reality if it is a folded horn i doubt it make such a nice 700 hz...
also the ratio will probably be the opposite, one mt121 to 2 subs.
horns are nice and efficent but difficult to build and tame. Reflex could be easier to build and to tune, but i understand if you you are set on horns.
 


Posted By: Hz so good
Date Posted: 04 November 2017 at 5:34pm
The style of music is house and garage, 240v system, 
I definitely wouldn't overlap, Ide cross them over somewhere that suits them best, for example 250hz just as a figure, even just 160hz, because the fanes only go down to 60hz provisions for subs below is definitely an option, I was kind of hoping that for smaller venues like social club function rooms or something about the size of a badminton court you could go with out subs and get everything I need from the fanes and the mt121, and add subs for bigger venues, I doubt by adding more fanes you would go much lower by horn coupling, correct me if I'm wrong, 
 


Posted By: Hz so good
Date Posted: 04 November 2017 at 5:45pm
I was wondering if I had got the ratio the wrong way round with 2 mts and one fane, thanks for correcting me,   if I had one mt121 on top of two fanes, all I would need to do is find a sub to work well with it, cheers.


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 04 November 2017 at 6:06pm
mt121 is loud. one a side is loud. the reason to use 2 a side, would be to cover a wider area.


Posted By: Hz so good
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 8:20am
I think the only reason I suggested two mt121 on top is from seeing f1 dance stacks with two ds10 on top of ds15s, but then obviously all that's on top of some f218s, as for the fanes only going down to 60hz I could either find a sub to go under em to go the lower freqs or bin em off and find some plans for a Martin b115 which go down to 40hz, they look very similar go a lot lower and it'll be cheaper to run, does any one know the correct driver for Martin b115? Thanks in advance, 


Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 9:09am
bro, you need lots of horns to get to 40, one or two doesn't do 40, unless they're huuuuuge. from memory the fane designs aren't that big, and, I can tell you right now the martin b115 won't go anywhere near 40. 

ps. @ -25db it's another story...


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 9:16am
Wrong design for 250 people, certainly wrong for house unless you are going to stack four horns at least.

If you must have horns for looks, build a Martin WSX (tra) with a V1000 in it.


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: Hz so good
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 9:49am
Ide stack 4 horns but how low would they go coupled together, is there a rule of thumb when you stack in multiples? 


Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 11:16am
depends on length of horn. It needs to be 1/4 of the lowest wavelength you're trying to get loud. Loading below this is also good. 40hz wavelength is 858cm, horn needs to be 215cm to load it, but going beyond that is good - say 230 odd, because excursion will rise very rapidly below the horn cuttoff. going longer with the horn keeps excursion under control through the HPF slope. 

The other factor is mouth area, the reason why one horn can't create gain in the lower octaves. When 4 horns combine, it starts getting nearer the required mouth area to load the lower octaves. They're acting as one big horn. 




Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 11:21am
The rirst rule of thumb is the horn length has to be at least 1/4 of a wavelength long to provide decent loading.
And the second is the mouth area circumference (i.e. the length around the horns when stacked together) needs to be the same as the wavelength of the lowest frequency your trying to reproduce.

Hope that makes sense.



Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 11:23am
Originally posted by Keen Keen wrote:

depends on length of horn. It needs to be 1/4 of the lowest wavelength you're trying to get loud. Loading below this is also good. 40hz wavelength is 858cm, horn needs to be 215cm to load it, but going beyond that is good - say 230 odd, because excursion will rise very rapidly below the horn cuttoff. going longer with the horn keeps excursion under control through the HPF slope. 

The other factor is mouth area, the reason why one horn can't create gain in the lower octaves. When 4 horns combine, it starts getting nearer the required mouth area to load the lower octaves. They're acting as one big horn. 




Hah beat me to it!


Posted By: Hz so good
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 10:22pm
thanks for all your advice, how would I measure the horn length on say a Martin b115 or fane long throw compared to say Es18 bph, do you measure both horns or one? An what do you measure the external perimeter affecting that horn excluding the mouth, say for example I had a single folded horn and it measured 1m x 1m exactly would I be right in assuming that you measure the rear panel at 1m and then the straight edge of the horn at 1m giving me a horn length of 2m? Or am I way off here? Thanks in advance 


Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 05 November 2017 at 11:04pm
designs like the b115, where the horns splits, you would only measure one side. 

It's relatively simple measuring horn length. Start from the center of the driver following the middle point between walls until the mouth. 

This example uses a tapped horn, but you get the idea

Related image


Posted By: Hz so good
Date Posted: 06 November 2017 at 7:13am
Nice one cheers for that,  


Posted By: Hz so good
Date Posted: 05 December 2017 at 11:15pm
Thought Ide put this fane idea to bed but just out of interest, would it be possible to scale up the drawings by say 25% to accommodate an 18" driver, and coupling 4 together, 

The plans for the 15 horn only go down to 60hz, any ideas what could be achieved by going to 18, thanks in advance, cheers   



Posted By: bitSmasher
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 8:00am
Originally posted by Keen Keen wrote:

Related image

Out of interest, what design is that?
Looks like a scaled down MTH30 - I'm curious about it...

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https://www.instagram.com/batteryacidsoundsystem/


Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 11:11am
Originally posted by Hz so good Hz so good wrote:

Thought Ide put this fane idea to bed but just out of interest, would it be possible to scale up the drawings by say 25% to accommodate an 18" driver, and coupling 4 together, 

The plans for the 15 horn only go down to 60hz, any ideas what could be achieved by going to 18, thanks in advance, cheers   



As said above, Youre going to need multiples of to get low. scaling a flh kick bin which really designed to be run to 90-400/500hz to go lower it would have to be huge. Driver size increase wont make any odds.. Only way to go lower is to use a longer horn design. So you need a sub design to run under it. The upside to that fane is you don't actually need a midtop. You could just use a coaxial horn and get better point source in the mf/hf.


Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by bitSmasher bitSmasher wrote:

Originally posted by Keen Keen wrote:

Related image

Out of interest, what design is that?
Looks like a scaled down MTH30 - I'm curious about it...

That isn't scaled.. it IS an mth30. I had one in my bar til about a month ago and would play dance music on it with a pair of sx100 tops and it would pound nicely all night long. I have been contemplating over the past two years to just scale it up to a 15" for fun just to see how it sounds as I do love the design and the 12" version I already have is made of 15mm OSB as it was ment to just be a test bin. But have used it for a good 18months without problem.


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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by mini-mad mini-mad wrote:

Originally posted by bitSmasher bitSmasher wrote:

Originally posted by Keen Keen wrote:

Related image

Out of interest, what design is that?
Looks like a scaled down MTH30 - I'm curious about it...

That isn't scaled.. it IS an mth30. I had one in my bar til about a month ago and would play dance music on it with a pair of sx100 tops and it would pound nicely all night long. I have been contemplating over the past two years to just scale it up to a 15" for fun just to see how it sounds as I do love the design and the 12" version I already have is made of 15mm OSB as it was ment to just be a test bin. But have used it for a good 18months without problem.

No it's not.
How do you think a 274mm baffle is supposed to support a 12" (nominally 30cm, hence the name) driver?


Posted By: Hz so good
Date Posted: 06 December 2017 at 3:06pm
Ide av thought that going to 18" plus 25% size increase when put in a block of four or so would have yielded some results, just had a play on calculator that fane increased by 25% is pretty big, like 576mm high 1398mm wide and 1183mm front to back, horn lengths around 1500mm give or take, total horn mouth areas in the region of 3900mm per cab, 
 



Posted By: SouthwestCNC
Date Posted: 07 December 2017 at 9:28am
id still be surprised if it plays as low as you'd like 1500mm horn length is still short for sub. Got the horn resp parameters for it?


Posted By: Hz so good
Date Posted: 07 December 2017 at 8:37pm
No I'm not familiar with horn resp I've emailed you an updated drawing with bigger dimensions on if that helps, cheers  



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