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Budget 18s in gsub?

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Topic: Budget 18s in gsub?
Posted By: saintzoilus
Subject: Budget 18s in gsub?
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 11:50am
Wondering how these subwoofers might be in a gsub design.

https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/rvp18w8/" rel="nofollow - https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/rvp18w8/

Or if someone can suggest a different budget 18 design or driver? I'm in canada so half a grand or more each (Over a grand total by the time I get them both) for the suggested gsub drivers just simply isn't in my budget.

Another design I was thinking might be cool would be something "like" the ookpik sw-218c or eaw sb1000 since I'd like to feel the bass 20-40 feet away, outdoors. (Would love a link to any designs like this if you know of one)

Power draw limits are making me look for something that is roughly 400-600w rms 2x (perfect for a double 18 gsub), buying a new bigger amp or using larger power draw speakers isn't a option since I will blow a braker if I use anything bigger then what I currently have (That I'm currently using to power a pair of rental speakers when I need)

~Edit
I'd like these to cover roughly 90-100hz down to 20-30hz since the rest of my system is pretty beefy from 80hz-100hz up.



Replies:
Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 12:18pm
Just because you can't afford $1000 doesn't mean you have to spend $100.

Notice they don't publish the xmax specification for this driver. That should always ring alarm bells when buying a sub driver. Why not publish it? Because it's crap.

Excursion capacity is one of the best ways to cut costs on driver design. I doubt that driver has ever sold for $170. The $60 offer looks nearer to the mark.

Pretty cheap for what it is, it has to be said - it will work it just won't be anywhere near optimal and will run out of juice a lot quicker than it's Watt rating suggests. If you're on an ultra-budget, building some bins for a laugh with some scrap wood and house paint, I would say go for it.

If you're buying quality plywood and plan to finish them professionally with decent paint and cabinet hardware, and going to use them for anything remotely serious, spend at least three times as much as that if you're buying new drivers, or buy used.

The North American market is different from European market for cheap drivers, but Parts-Express has an excellent range and a good search tool, so just look for 18" drivers and sort by price range - think in the $150-200 range for decent quality budget drivers.



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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 12:36pm
I am pretty sure you can find 18sound, B&C, even Eminence in Canada.
BC 18TBX100 should not be too expensive there.



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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 12:42pm
Well to put this into perspective....

I thought the same thing about rockville.. Untill I did some homework on them, they do car audio gear and are pretty respected in car audio and car audio competitions. They factory make their stuff and sell factory direct so your looking at prices before retail. For example a place like parts express would be adding a large retail price ontop of what the factory direct cost would be, I would assume somewhere around 50%-60% of the cost is the real cost.

With that being said...

I took a risk and figured "why not" try their PA speakers? I had four kick bins loaded with old 450w 15s that I eventually killed, so for around $200 I got *Four 15 inch drivers that cover the hz band I wanted very nicely, they sound better then the drivers that used to be in here by a *long* shot and are the roughly the same power rating on paper. They seem to be able to handle the power I'm giving them as well that is around its RMS rating so I would call it accurate for the 15s I own at least.

Alternatively the cheapest/best thing I could get locally would be kappa's at around $150/ea meaning this would've cost me $600 for the same kick bins. Sure we can argue all day that the kappas are better, they obviously are, but for the hz band I'm using these rockvilles in the kick bins I have are loud as hell and keep up with my double 15 yorkville maxim 1000's that I've taken the old drivers out of and replaced with kappa 15's. Again granted the kappa 15's go 1khz higher, but for kick bins I don't need that since I'm cutting that out anyways, so for this situation the rockvilles are the better option since they are as loud in the hz band I'm using them for and are a 1/3d of the price for the same four drivers.

With that being said, this makes me think about their subwoofers. I have a pair of yorkville PR418's that I've loaded a pair of these rockville 18's into and they sound good to me, however the orginal drivers seems to sound better at higher hz 200-300hz cut off, while the rockville seemed to go lower then the 40hz orginal could. This makes me think they are not very well suited for woofers (like this cab is designed for) and would be better in a gsub design.

I'm open to other options tho, what should I be looking for? Obviously xmax doesn't tell the entire story or else everybody would be using car audio speakers with huge xmax rubber speaker surrounds instead of tight impact based surrounds like all PA speakers use.


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 12:50pm
The bc 18tbx100 is a nicer price I can see them on ebay for $400 after shipping so I mean $800 roughly for a pair is better then over a grand but these are 1200w rms so I would be unable to power them with my current power limits or I would only be able to power one, not a double.

This is why I'm thinking about the rockville drivers, I mean I already got two of them and if they sound good I could cut some speakers out of my setup like the PR418's to make room for some more.

I did some local pricing and to build one cab its looking like the cab itself is going to cost me under $150 with a half sheet left over if I wanted to build a 2nd cab. So in theory this could be a double 18 for around $300 or less, a completed cab for less then the cost of one of the suggested drivers.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 12:53pm
You dont buy professional PA drivers on ebay. Find the distributor and you will get much better price.

http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-18TBX100-1.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-18TBX100-1.htm


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 1:03pm
Its actually $12 cheaper on ebay after usd to cad convertion assuming shipping on both is $22.

I mean even things on parts express, sold by parts express on ebay are cheaper on ebay, its not the worst place and alows you to "make a offer" on things sometimes.

Talking to local dealers hasn't been very productive for me, for example long n mcquade (that is my only local dealer for eminence speakers to get my kappa's on the entire island) is actually more expensive then what I can get online and due to that I've only bought a pair off them once when they where able to get them in asap before a party, so it was worth the extra money to me in that situation since ordering online takes time...

The point I'm making here tho is that I could make the entire cab with drivers (two) for less then the cost of just one driver (that is the wrong wattage anyways) so I'm just kinda feeling like the alternatives are not very good options for me (spending a grand for something I cant even use)


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 1:09pm
You already have two of the drivers you're thinking of using so just build a Gsub, load them, see if it's good enough for you and if it is then buy four more, if it isn't just refit them for whichever drivers you decide to buy instead.

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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 1:13pm
I mean alternatively I can buy delta pro-18's from long n mcquade for over $200, but I could get 3 rockvilles for that and the deltas do not look anymore impressive with 2.5 inch voice coils vs the rockvilles 3 inch voice coils.


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

You already have two of the drivers you're thinking of using so just build a Gsub, load them, see if it's good enough for you and if it is then buy four more, if it isn't just refit them for whichever drivers you decide to buy instead.


Well thats the thing, I'm wondering if these drivers are better suited for something else like the ookpik sw-218/sb1000 type design.

How would I go about finding out what they are best suited for instead of just building a random case and hope'n for the best?


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by saintzoilus saintzoilus wrote:

Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

You already have two of the drivers you're thinking of using so just build a Gsub, load them, see if it's good enough for you and if it is then buy four more, if it isn't just refit them for whichever drivers you decide to buy instead.


Well thats the thing, I'm wondering if these drivers are better suited for something else like the ookpik sw-218/sb1000 type design.

How would I go about finding out what they are best suited for instead of just building a random case and hope'n for the best?
WinISD, simulate the box and see how the plot looks.

I don't see why they would be more suitable for the Ookpik design. The loading of the drivers looks more demanding than a Gsub, which is just a straight up reflex really. The box dimensions don't look at all convenient either. 1.1 metre depth!? Nightmare!


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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 1:29pm
Why are you looking at USA sites?
https://qcomponents.ca/B-and-C-18TBX100.html" rel="nofollow - https://qcomponents.ca/B-and-C-18TBX100.html


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

Why are you looking at USA sites?
https://qcomponents.ca/B-and-C-18TBX100.html" rel="nofollow - https://qcomponents.ca/B-and-C-18TBX100.html


Why are you still going off about prices like what site I'm using is going to change the fact of what these are worth.

I mean I quoted these drivers at around $400/ea already.... wow your site says the same... So thats $800 in drivers instead of 1k+ I mean I guess thats a bit cheaper (as I've already pointed out) but its not within my price range.

I mean I get it, you want me to use these drivers, but they are NOT a good match for me, they are over my price budget and have TWICE the wattage I'm looking for, meaning I would NOT be able to power them under my current braker limits and amp limits of 400-600w 2x.


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

Originally posted by saintzoilus saintzoilus wrote:

Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

You already have two of the drivers you're thinking of using so just build a Gsub, load them, see if it's good enough for you and if it is then buy four more, if it isn't just refit them for whichever drivers you decide to buy instead.


Well thats the thing, I'm wondering if these drivers are better suited for something else like the ookpik sw-218/sb1000 type design.

How would I go about finding out what they are best suited for instead of just building a random case and hope'n for the best?
WinISD, simulate the box and see how the plot looks.

I don't see why they would be more suitable for the Ookpik design. The loading of the drivers looks more demanding than a Gsub, which is just a straight up reflex really. The box dimensions don't look at all convenient either. 1.1 metre depth!? Nightmare!


Well the thing I liked about the ookpik design is that I would be able to stack them next to each other and they would take up less room in my house then a pair of gsubs.

From what I read around SB1000's are pretty good, plenty of folks with touring line array systems using them. I mean the sb1001/sb1002/sb1000z all have updated designs and higher power drivers, but it was my understanding that the orginal sb1000's didn't have all that powerful of 18s in them.

The eventual goal here would be to retire some things like the kick bins and make uniform speakers that match each other, so that again makes the sb1000 type design kinda luring since if I replaced everything I had but my high/mids I could prob have 4-6 of those cabs under my power limits for low end.

This system is for close range listening 10-40 feet away so again the sb1000 seems like a good option since I want to feel the bass away from the subs, but on the flip side the gsub seems like it would have better "spread" since if I had 4-6 of them in a wall there would be more room for people to be right next to them then if I had the more compact sb1000's.


Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 7:13pm
Well, few months ago I got two 18" cheap MGR drivers for really low price, so I took them to the test.

However, those drivers are actually pretty good in 500litre bass reflex box I made just for fun :D
Much louder than I thought.  Amplifier was T.amp TA1400 and we played all the party night pretty hard, at least one hour at full power and clipping leds was blinking continuously.. no problems whatsoever! 
Why clipping? because I didnt care about those drivers, if they break then they break, not a big deal anyway.. but they survived that damn torture :)







Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 17 November 2017 at 7:30pm
If you do decide to buy Rockville at least don't buy their $59.95 speaker when they have a $72.50 option that claims 1800w power rating.

https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/rvw1800p8/" rel="nofollow - https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/rvw1800p8/

Forget about what your amp says, it's marketing BS anyway. If they have two levels of budget driver you obviously don't want the marginally cheaper one. 

Don't buy their BS about making them themselves either. Their range is loaded with designs lifted directly from generic Chinese knock-off OEMs (Mackie clones etc).

As always, the calculation you really need to consider when making this purchase isn't 'does it get loud enough for me'

That's simply the wrong question to ask.

As it goes, they probably will get loud enough for you (as you've already discovered), but here's the thing: If they get so much as 6dB less loud than the alternatives could, after long term power compression performance and clean excursion limits are factored in (two areas where they are 100% guaranteed to be considerably weaker), then you would be better off building half the bins with proper drivers that cost twice as much (or if you spend 100 USD building each bin, three times as much.

And that's even before you factor in sound quality, quality control, long term reliability, and the considerably lowered hassle and costs involved in the operation of your sound system that uses half as many bins for the same result. Over time this might be important enough to you to pay $300 for a driver, or at least $210 for an entry level Faital Pro or Beyma reflex driver with quality, reliability, and 9mm xmax.

You could a/b test with your existing Rockville speakers and another sub, maybe bridging your amp to drive them beyond their limit.

You might need to upgrade your amp to fully utilise the potential of proper drivers, but if you only have to carry half as many bins that still may be worth it.


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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 18 November 2017 at 9:09am
Will Thomann not ship to you?

https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_speaker_185008a.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_speaker_185008a.htm

https://forum.speakerplans.com/thomanns-cheap-18-driver-in-gsub_topic42468.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/thomanns-cheap-18-driver-in-gsub_topic42468.html


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It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 21 November 2017 at 7:38pm

You live in Canada. Just buy from a reputable Canadian Loudspeaker Company

http://www.tr.ca/" rel="nofollow - http://www.tr.ca/

Rockville Speakers is in the same class as Pyramid Speakers. 

Best Regards, 





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Elliot Thompson


Posted By: TheAmazingGanjaMan
Date Posted: 21 November 2017 at 8:38pm
is Canadas power really that bad? 2 x 600w speakers will trip breakers???



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Burn Baby Burn Voice Coil Inferno


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 22 November 2017 at 10:27am
For a start,  seeing as OP is looking for drivers for reflex cab, might be an idea, to be looking at drivers with T/S parms ideally suited for purpose.

B&C 18TBX100, is more suited to horn loaded cabs.

B&C 18PZB100 is a great reflex driver.

Even if looking for budget driver, would suggest only looking at drivers, with parameters similar to the following:

B&C 18PZB100
B&C 18PS100
FANE 18XB
RCF L18P300

There will of course be other manufacturers/models, but those would be my first choice.

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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 22 November 2017 at 12:24pm
All this speculation and suggestion is totally pointless until one thing is settled:

How much do you have to spend?

You've said what your budget isn't, but not what it is. You can't be helped until you answer this really.


Posted By: midas
Date Posted: 22 November 2017 at 1:21pm
From what I have seen the sb1000 is very inefficient. 95db or something.

You are seriously expecting to get 20 - 30 hz out of a g sub with cheap crap drivers???? Dream on. 4 scoops with the best 18’s can’t do that.

G sub is tuned for 50 hz. I would think you would be better looking at a better 15 inch driver and making something like a push pull.

And if you are asking for advise the least you could do is listen to some of it given. Looks like you have your mind set on those crap drivers.

Instead of 8 crap drivers why not get 2 decent ones and go from there.

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In bass no one can hear you scream!


Posted By: Meat
Date Posted: 22 November 2017 at 3:22pm
The B&C 18PS100 that Lev mentions above should really do the trick for you. It's normally significantly cheaper than the TBX and will go very low.

Midas is also correct, if you want to go very low then you need a lower tuned box than a G-sub.

The 18PS100 will perform in that kind of box at moderate power levels.

When you get bored of hoiking your rig around the B&C will have a decent resale value if you treat them nice and the junk drivers won't.

Enjoy.


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Don't test the champignon sound


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 22 November 2017 at 3:26pm
Quote From what I have seen the sb1000 is very inefficient. 95db or something.
How can a 2x18 design be 95dB efficient? Unless you use very inefficient drivers.

-------------
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Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 23 November 2017 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

Quote From what I have seen the sb1000 is very inefficient. 95db or something.
How can a 2x18 design be 95dB efficient? Unless you use very inefficient drivers.

Easily, if you look at the lower part of their operating range.

Quite a lot of EAW's subs (and many other manufacturers i'm sure) were designed on the premise that there is more energy in the upper bass in most music genres than the lower bass, so they made their bass bins pretty efficient above say 100-ish Hz, and allowed them to roll off quite a lot below there. They then boosted the low end back up to match the upper end, which eats into the amp's headroom a lot, but if the music being played matches the premise (less low bass in the first place) you get away with it.

Look at the datasheets to see what I mean - the unprocessed curves often look rubbish, but as they knew their drivers could take the boost from the processing, the end result has historically been considered pretty satisfactory by the industry.

Oh, and if you look at the datasheets - a lot of EAW's subs are measured in whole space, so automatically 6dB lower than many other manufacturers.


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 6:27am


Originally posted by TheAmazingGanjaMan TheAmazingGanjaMan wrote:

is Canadas power really that bad? 2 x 600w speakers will trip breakers???


Its OUTDOORS genny power.

So yes, 4 fully loaded amps will trip the brakers, so will buying a bigger amp (a 30amp and a 20amp on a large genny) so thats why I only use 3 amps. The goal here would be to have Four of these cabs, 4ohm per cab, wired 2 each channel, 2ohm per channel, 4 dual 18 cabs for that one amp that I have free to power speakers (within my power limits). I've been using this amp already with rental 8ohm single subs, 8 of them to the one amp, 4x 8ohm per side at 2ohm, so the goal here is to reduce my need to continuously rent subs by building some and possibly have better/easier to move ones by building double 18s. I'd like to make a case mod so that they have handles on the top and a pair of casters on the back corner that is cut and made flat so you can lean them back like a dolly like my double 15s are. 

I wish there was more affordable passive options out there but everybody ether wants a bank (like 3k for a pair of peavey dual 15s for example) or the gear is powered and due to that isn't worth my attention due to the power draw being too high for outdoor use (like yorkvilles ls801p's that are everywhere or pk's dual 18 bins that seem to be the new Nike or Adidas of speakers in BC here) so I'm back to looking at building my own speakers again.

Its a idea I have re-visited over the years, mainly in the winter off season, but I've never pulled the trigger yet since I've been able to find used cases locally and put replacement drivers in them or get them reconed for decent prices. I can find maxim 1000 dual 15 full range cabs for around $300 canadian a pair and they are screaming loud, I can't max them for close range listening so my problem is not full range cabs since they are plentiful around here to buy used. However I rarely find subs, my first pair being full range PR418's that have a 18 inch driver, a 10, bullet and horn, then I found a pair of yorkville dual 18s that are my main subs atm with 500rms drivers so 4ohm 1k rms per cab, 2k peak. I just picked up a pair of yorkville yx18s subs today, haven't even really pound em yet but they are sold locally for $600/ea and I picked up the pair for $300/pair, I know sounds crazy but I did a test on them before hand and they sound good and have orginal drivers so I figure I can at least get my money back for em later. Weird thing about the yx18s is that they are 6ohm cabs, I donno if thats a wiring thing or if the drivers are legitimately 6ohm but I'm having to dedicate one channel of my amp to these two subs (3ohm, 2ohm is as low as it goes so I cant stack anymore).. I could alternatively be renting 4 cabs for that channel, so I mean I have less but in the long run I'm saving on rentals... Alternatively I could be powering two dual 18 cabs off this, I'd much rather have a 4x cab wall of matching dual 18s instead of the hodge podge of whatever I can find locally for a reasonable price, I mean finding matching dual 15's are easy, they are everywhere, but subs are either going to be one of the below

a)
Massively out of my budget

b)
Powered so its not worth my time due to power restrictions

c)
Built by me

I'm trying to pick C here but I'm not sure everybody whos posting here is following the build idea I'm after of having a close range listening wall of multiple speakers INSTEAD of a couple high powered drivers.

Originally posted by Elliot Thompson Elliot Thompson wrote:

You live in Canada. Just buy from a reputable Canadian Loudspeaker Company

http://www.tr.ca/" rel="nofollow - http://www.tr.ca/

Rockville Speakers is in the same class as Pyramid Speakers. 

Best Regards, 





Thanks for this, I had no idea these guys existed but I'll try calling about the drivers tomorrow, the 550w ones they have look really good, so it all comes down to that price haha.

Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Will Thomann not ship to you?

https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_speaker_185008a.htm" rel="nofollow - https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_speaker_185008a.htm

https://forum.speakerplans.com/thomanns-cheap-18-driver-in-gsub_topic42468.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/thomanns-cheap-18-driver-in-gsub_topic42468.html


No idea but at 133euros each, that would be $210 each canadian, I could get 2-3 rockvilles for that. I mean 1 vs 1 the thomann's are prob better, but verse 2-3 in either single reflexes or a dual 18? I'm not so sure, I mean for the price of 2 of thomann's I could have 5-6 of the rockvilles... I mean thats the logic behind him not buying the fane xd's right? Was costing him like a 1/3 or so. 

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

All this speculation and suggestion is totally pointless until one thing is settled:

How much do you have to spend?

You've said what your budget isn't, but not what it is. You can't be helped until you answer this really.
 

Great question.

I do not have 1k+ to spend per cab as I already stated this is out of my budget so I'd like to spend less then say $500 per cab. I'm only seeing self powered dual 18s around 2k+ american so add a extra $500, for that same $2500 (plus shipping/duty) I could build eight (8) dual 18 cabs, thats 16x drivers and I'd have money left over. There is nothing in my area that fits my needs, everything is self powered, nobody locally makes dual 18s that I have access to that are 1) reasonably priced and 2) within my power limits of 400-600w/ea driver (800-1200w/ea cab) so this continuously leads me over the years to thinking about building subs.

The rockville dual 18 cab, priced out is costing me around $350 but it leaves me with a half sheet for a 2nd cab so I could build a 2nd cab by only buying one sheet of birch instead of two, making the 2nd one even cheaper, I'd estimate I could get both cabs built for around $600, for sure under $700 for both dual 18 cabs.

At that price I could build a couple every 2-3 months till I was able to swap out all my hodge podge'd gear in a year or so.

I think the problem everyone here is missing is that if I "take their advise" and just get some high powered 18s instead of looking for high efficiency 400w-600w drivers, then I would have to remove more speakers from the setup and reduce the size of something I'm trying to expand the size of to have more area that is next to the speakers. I'd also be able to buy less of them, a payment plan even in monthly payments would prevent any other gear upgrades from happening while also keeping the system visually smaller, having less area in front of the speakers.

Again this is OUTDOORS. There is no room to max out or to hold the sound. So having a couple high powered drivers isn't as good of a idea as a wall of close range listening drivers for what I'm doing with them. A few cabs is NOT better then alot of cabs just purely due to having a wider bass note, more room for people to be right in front of it.

I mean the whole reason why I do passive instead of self powered speakers is for massive efficiency. I could do 3-4 yorkville ls108p's instead of a wall of speakers and it would be massively less impressive then multiple times that amount of passive.

Originally posted by midas midas wrote:

From what I have seen the sb1000 is very inefficient. 95db or something.

You are seriously expecting to get 20 - 30 hz out of a g sub with cheap crap drivers???? Dream on. 4 scoops with the best 18’s can’t do that. 

G sub is tuned for 50 hz. I would think you would be better looking at a better 15 inch driver and making something like a push pull. 

And if you are asking for advise the least you could do is listen to some of it given. Looks like you have your mind set on those crap drivers. 

Instead of 8 crap drivers why not get 2 decent ones and go from there.
 

From what I hear ya the new sb1001's ect are all power monsters due to the 18sound drivers they use in them now.

However the first generation of sb1000's did not and was my understanding that these where more around the 500-600w range making it a 1k-1.2k rms cab that people obviously threw more at as program.

The reason why I bring up the sb1000's is since they are array subs, meant to be stacked together much like what I would like to do.

I have looked at the push pull and other 15 designs, dual 15 subs is another option I have been thinking about since they are more commonly found within the specs I'm looking for, however I'd like to see this thread through before derailing it on the many 15 inch drivers that could be out there.

I hear you saying I'm not "listening to advise" but its just simply that I don't want to have 2-3 high powered 18s as replacement for a wall of them, I've tried it with rentals, OUTDOORS it was NOT as nice NOR anywhere near as impressive for ~CLOSE RANGE LISTENING~ since only half the people can get near the sub, its not as wide of a bass note and thus less people can enjoy it outdoors since its not indoors maxing the room. Outdoors eats up sound, what I need is sub bass on the area directly in front of the stage, about 20 feet wide... How does one use 1 single 18 to spread across 20 feet so everybody can be in front of the subs? You don't anywhere near as well as a line of 8 of them and it won't look anywhere near as impressive, I mean if you show up to a party and you look at the stage and only see one lonely sub wouldn't that look alot less impressive then a line of 18s? Plus then you'd be coupling 8 speakers for db increase and lower hz, those are all great things... So what am I missing aside of you guys all being too lazy to move multiple cabs and saying one cab is better then multiples due to moving less/less setup?

And honestly I don't really care what drivers I use in the long run but I don't really want to be spending more then $100-150 Canadian (about 30% more then usd) and those rockville drivers I can get a PAIR for $150, roughly $75/ea canadian so they seem like a insane budget speaker that I can't find a reason why the hate on them aside of them being cheap... Unless I'm missing something from the specs? Again I'd be totally into another speaker but trying to find a 18 inch driver even at usd $100 is pretty hard, most of the ones I see have magnets on them that look dwarfed on the back of a 18 basket so they don't "seem" like a better option to me having smaller magnets and/or voice coils then the rockvilles.


Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 6:54am
Been looking on the canadian ebay foe ya and found these - ttps://m.ebay.ca/itm/Peavey-18-Lo-Max-RB-Replacement-Speaker-Basket-00560410-/272854488511?nav=SEARCH

Excellent specs, free shipping and price seems good. I know they are high wattage but honestly buying quality is the way to go and just power them the best you can.

Remember: the difference between 600w and 1200w is only 3 db, and thats not counting power compression! Plus im almost certain the peavey will have better sensitivity that the rockvilles.

Its obviously your money and you should go with how comfortable you are with the prices, its an expensive hobby we all have!

I would certainly try the company elliot linked too as well, they may be able to do a deal on bulk orders.




Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 7:17am
Originally posted by Mikkel Mikkel wrote:

Been looking on the canadian ebay foe ya and found these - ttps://m.ebay.ca/itm/Peavey-18-Lo-Max-RB-Replacement-Speaker-Basket-00560410-/272854488511?nav=SEARCH

Excellent specs, free shipping and price seems good. I know they are high wattage but honestly buying quality is the way to go and just power them the best you can.

Remember: the difference between 600w and 1200w is only 3 db, and thats not counting power compression! Plus im almost certain the peavey will have better sensitivity that the rockvilles.

Its obviously your money and you should go with how comfortable you are with the prices, its an expensive hobby we all have!

I would certainly try the company elliot linked too as well, they may be able to do a deal on bulk orders.




Thanks for looking, however those are Replacement Recone kits, the idea is you unscrew the magnet off the back and screw in the new basket without having to do glue recone ect, you could have it back up and running the same night is the theory if you had one on standby.

Funny enough I had their first generation of these when they had metal dust caps in the middle, a "exetremely husky woman" got up and started dancing on them and busted through the top panel of the 18 cab, smashing it into 3 bits and getting her stuck in the sub for a short amount of time... And thats what I came back to, was gona ask her not to dance on them, walking towards her and BAM goes right through it. I kept the 18s from it and trashed the case, she rekt one of the 18s straight up so I just trashed the bin and unscrewed the magnet from the back... I still got those magnets but they are like "old" and rusted n shit, donno if I'd trust new baskets on them in all honesty lol, I mean the circle line that the voice coil would go into has like shit in it so I've just been using it as a shop magnet to hold metal tools lol!


Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 7:31am
I see! ups, my mistake. Think i need glasses!

Well i was simming your rockville driver in a 200L cab (300cm2 port, 18cm long) and it doesn't sim too bad too be honest: PS this is one cab in 2pi



Ignore the gray line, that is the peavey. As you can see it doesn't go as low but it still reaches 40Hz -3/4 db. Depends on the music your playing if you can get away with it.

I can't seem to get on the site Elliot posted a link too, it just takes me to a screen with a logo and no further, otherwise i would have simed that too.


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 7:45am
Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

For a start,  seeing as OP is looking for drivers for reflex cab, might be an idea, to be looking at drivers with T/S parms ideally suited for purpose.

B&C 18TBX100, is more suited to horn loaded cabs.

B&C 18PZB100 is a great reflex driver.

Even if looking for budget driver, would suggest only looking at drivers, with parameters similar to the following:

B&C 18PZB100
B&C 18PS100
FANE 18XB
RCF L18P300

There will of course be other manufacturers/models, but those would be my first choice.


What do you think would be more powerful,  Four of those rockvilles in two dual 18s or One of those 18PS100? How about 5-6 of those rockvilles or ONE of those B&C 18PZB100?

Just how bad do you think these are? Cuz for the price I'm wondering how one driver could keep up with 5-6 in 3x dual 18 cabs for *Outdoor *Close range listening where you don't have a room to max out. And I say this from experience since I own two of them already and have tried them in different cabs, putting them verse what are very expensive yorkville speakers ($450ea) and they are very loud, you can have the Four $450 yorkville speakers going but when I turn on the two rockvilles you can notice them going on, admittedly they are kind of punchy but I DID cut them off at 40hz due to the internal cross over, could be due to the case they are in as well. Is there something in the specs your seeing that I'm missing? Again confused why everybody is automaticaly trashing on these while I see posts supporting dayton drivers for example that I view as trash from experience, like the dcs450, buddy of mine has a pair of those so for shits n giggles we took them out and put them head to head by putting both the rockvilles in one of my dual 18s and both the dayton's in my other dual 18 and I'd play one, then turn the other up, then turn the 1st one off, then turn it back up. What this showed me was that the rockvilles was the louder speaker, they over powered the daytons to the point where you could notice the rockvilles turn on when it was only the daytons playing but you could barely notice the daytons turn on when it was just the rockvilles playing, both cabs side by side. So I mean this makes me wonder about things since again most people on this forum will say things like xmax being "the thing" to look for but yet these daytons have 8.25mm of xmax yet upon maxing the amp (one tick on the knob below clip limiter light) the rockvilles where noticably louder despite the daytons moving more by at least a 1/3d visually. Thats a $60usd driver beating a $125usd driver so in my opinion having two or four rockvilles would be nicer then having one or two daytons since they seem to beat them one vs one.

"to be looking at drivers with T/S parms ideally suited for purpose."

What exactly makes a driver ideally suited? I mean as I just clearly pointed out xmax isn't everything when the dayton drivers, while having more xmas, is not as loud as the rockville drivers, with the same wattage given to both, in the same dual 18 bass reflex cab.

So if its not xmax and its a combination of things, how does one find a new driver without test buying every driver? I mean you just told me that those drivers are suited for that, what in the specs shows that? Or is that just parroting speakers you've seen others use without knowing why?


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 7:46am
While you're comparing everything against the price of the Yorkville its always going to win.

Which is fine.

As you seem quite happy to try them, buy some, *design your own box to suit* and crack on! (Id build the first two out of mdf to save money and check youre happy. I think you will be.

That said once you've bought the driver, grille, handles, paint or carpet and sockets you'd find it just as cheap to just buy the Yorkville pre made passive subs. Singles not doubles but zero work!

Then come back and review then honestly so we find it how you got on.


Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 7:47am
Found it in the end!

This is a sim of the rockville (black) and the TR 18B-1100 (550W one, gray)

Now the transparence driver i shortened the port to 9cm as it was tuned too low for the driver but other than that the cabs simed are identical. plus the rockville doesn't seem to get any better than what its at now.

I know it completely depends on what the company can offer price wise, but i hope this help.




Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 7:52am
Can you sim the two yorkville drivers against each other?

Only $20 in it, be interesting to see if they sim much differently


Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 8:10am
The RVP18W8 (cheaper one) is gray, the RVW1800P8 is black.

Obviously the design could be optimised but as a comparison the cabs are still 200L, 18cm and 300cm2

The parameters aren't great for vented with QES over .5 on both of them, as you can see with the transparence driver which sims much better.




Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 8:18am
Originally posted by Mikkel Mikkel wrote:

I see! ups, my mistake. Think i need glasses!

Well i was simming your rockville driver in a 200L cab (300cm2 port, 18cm long) and it doesn't sim too bad too be honest: PS this is one cab in 2pi



Ignore the gray line, that is the peavey. As you can see it doesn't go as low but it still reaches 40Hz -3/4 db. Depends on the music your playing if you can get away with it.

I can't seem to get on the site Elliot posted a link too, it just takes me to a screen with a logo and no further, otherwise i would have simed that too.


Thanks for taking this seriously instead of just laughing at the price of the drivers like everybody else.

From what your showing me here these rockville drivers seem to be Very close to the peaveys. I could cut them off at 30hz or 50hz with my amp without any extra gear, so this seems promising to me to have some data behind these to support this "theory" of building speakers with them. I have a copy of rockvilles chart somewhere, I'll try to remember looking for it and I'll post it here if I can find it, I couldn't find it online anywhere but they shipped a paper version in the box.



Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 8:19am
[/QUOTE] "to be looking at drivers with T/S parms ideally suited for purpose."

What exactly makes a driver ideally suited? I mean as I just clearly pointed out xmax isn't everything when the dayton drivers, while having more xmas, is not as loud as the rockville drivers, with the same wattage given to both, in the same dual 18 bass reflex cab.

So if its not xmax and its a combination of things, how does one find a new driver without test buying every driver? I mean you just told me that those drivers are suited for that, what in the specs shows that? Or is that just parroting speakers you've seen others use without knowing why?[/QUOTE]

when you look at the specs on a driver you can tell what kind of enclosure it would suit. I don't know too much about what parameters to look out for but for vented cabs you want QES to be around .35 and a few other this like EBP but that doesn't matter at the moment.

If you look back to the post with the sim of the rockville and the transparence drivers you can see the rockville peaks around 60hz and drops either side, sharply in the lows, more gently in the highs. Whereas the TR 18B-1100 is pretty much flat.

Its a bit more complicated that this but just to give an idea.


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 8:36am
Originally posted by Mikkel Mikkel wrote:

Quote "to be looking at drivers with T/S parms ideally suited for purpose."

What exactly makes a driver ideally suited? I mean as I just clearly pointed out xmax isn't everything when the dayton drivers, while having more xmas, is not as loud as the rockville drivers, with the same wattage given to both, in the same dual 18 bass reflex cab.

So if its not xmax and its a combination of things, how does one find a new driver without test buying every driver? I mean you just told me that those drivers are suited for that, what in the specs shows that? Or is that just parroting speakers you've seen others use without knowing why?


when you look at the specs on a driver you can tell what kind of enclosure it would suit. I don't know too much about what parameters to look out for but for vented cabs you want QES to be around .35 and a few other this like EBP but that doesn't matter at the moment.

If you look back to the post with the sim of the rockville and the transparence drivers you can see the rockville peaks around 60hz and drops either side, sharply in the lows, more gently in the highs. Whereas the TR 18B-1100 is pretty much flat.

Its a bit more complicated that this but just to give an idea.


Is that not where I should want my boost to be? I mean I'm looking to have these around 40 to 90-100 so that seems like right perfect in the middle.

I mean alternatively what do these drivers look like they would be good at to you? I'm not completely set on the gsub obviously since I've already suggested sb1000's for example. The thing that lures me to a front loaded dual bassreflex design is the fact it takes up a decent area (as in less cabs take up more physical space to spread wider across a 20 foot line) and doesn't have delay issues like compression horns for example do, this really screws with the scratch djs for example. It also doesn't change the note into something else like a horn path would, I'm looking to hear what its supposed to sound like instead of a horn fart.

As for the tr 18b-1100's if they are anymore then $150/ea then it becomes a question of if one beats two rockvilles since I can get two for around $150 canadian.


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Mikkel Mikkel wrote:



..you can see the rockville peaks around 60hz and drops either side, sharply in the lows, more gently in the highs..


Is it THAT bad to have -5db to -8db at 30hz? 90db vs 95-98 it looks like for a rough avg upwards, this seems plenty loud for being 1 to 30-40 feet away?

Or alternatively, what case aside of a bass reflex could help extend that low end that might work with something like these?


Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 9:01am
Thats fair enough. I guess your best option is to find out how much they are and if they aren't within your price range then just stick with the rockvilles. All im saying is that you will get more band per watt for the tr 18b's.

If it was me, i would look at building a planar wave guide to maximise the output above 80 hz. something with a ~180L chamber (300cm2 and 20cm length port) and 23cm front 'pipe'.

Heres an example but not correct dims for your driver - http://i2.tinypic.com/sq7677.gif" rel="nofollow - http://i2.tinypic.com/sq7677.gif

I can help you design a plan but if you feel thats a bit too fancy then just stick with the normal front loaded design. PS G-subs are tuned quite high (~50hz) so you might be better off with a plan thats tunes a bit lower.

But i certainly agree with hemisphere, if you do stick with the rockvilles then go for the best one they got, summat with 4" voice coil if possible.






Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 9:25am
Originally posted by saintzoilus saintzoilus wrote:

[QUOTE]

As for the tr 18b-1100's if they are anymore then $150/ea then it becomes a question of if one beats two rockvilles since I can get two for around $150 canadian.


Define beats?

Louder?
Flatter response? No
Cheaper? Yes
Better sound? Who knows?


This is observation not criticism; you seem to value quantity, price and spl most.

These drivers will fufil that. You're not going to convince anyone here they're the answer for us as others have different priorities. That said they seem to fufil your requirements.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 11:19am
Originally posted by Mikkel Mikkel wrote:



What exactly makes a driver ideally suited? I mean as I just clearly pointed out xmax isn't everything when the dayton drivers, while having more xmas, is not as loud as the rockville drivers, with the same wattage given to both, in the same dual 18 bass reflex cab.



No one said it's all about Xmax.

Originally posted by Mikkel Mikkel wrote:


So if its not xmax and its a combination of things, how does one find a new driver without test buying every driver? I mean you just told me that those drivers are suited for that, what in the specs shows that? Or is that just parroting speakers you've seen others use without knowing why?


Maybe if you spent some time reading past posts here and Google, you'll learn Speaker EBP is a good starting point, for deciding which drivers suit which cab types.

Then using some cab design software, you can deduce optimal cab/driver chamber sizes.
Some people here have been doing this for years, and can pass on knowledge gained from experience, without everyone needing to do the same footwork.

I have found WinISD to be one of the most precise and accurate, piece of software, for reflex cab design.
Especially with the excellent T/S parms calculator/entry.

http://www.linearteam.org/" rel="nofollow - http://www.linearteam.org/

The simulation regarding driver displacement, I found to be exceptionally helpful.



-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 11:24am
@Mikkel,

This might also be a good starting point for you, to know how to recognise drivers optimal for reflex cabs.

https://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq4" rel="nofollow - https://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq4




-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by Mikkel Mikkel wrote:

Thats fair enough. I guess your best option is to find out how much they are and if they aren't within your price range then just stick with the rockvilles. All im saying is that you will get more band per watt for the tr 18b's.

If it was me, i would look at building a planar wave guide to maximise the output above 80 hz. something with a ~180L chamber (300cm2 and 20cm length port) and 23cm front 'pipe'.

Heres an example but not correct dims for your driver - http://i2.tinypic.com/sq7677.gif" rel="nofollow - http://i2.tinypic.com/sq7677.gif

I can help you design a plan but if you feel thats a bit too fancy then just stick with the normal front loaded design. PS G-subs are tuned quite high (~50hz) so you might be better off with a plan thats tunes a bit lower.

But i certainly agree with hemisphere, if you do stick with the rockvilles then go for the best one they got, summat with 4" voice coil if possible.


There is only the two models of the rockvilles and they seem pretty close side by side in the graph you showed? Was that at the same wattage each or maxing each at their rated wattage? I'd have to bridge my amp to get 1k+ rms each at only 4ohm (so I could power two) so this makes the lower wattage ones more tempting since at 2ohm each channel, I can hook up 8 of these subs per the one amp. The voice coil is the same size for both drivers. Truth be told I wouldn't be giving them the full 600w/ea, more like 400-500/ea, thats why I'm looking for the high efficiency, low wattage, low cost drivers instead of high cost, high powered drivers.

I do like the look of that sub, it reminds me of the triangle corner subs folks seem to be coming out with now adays like the martin ws218x for example. However from the looks of this, the front "chamber" is as big or larger then the back chamber and the sub is in the middle? How important is that, like is that done like that just to have smaller volume inside the cab for the sub while having longer ports? Or is that front chamber doing something else I'm missing? I'm still pretty set on making a double 18, in your opinion would it be possible to redesign that cab so the driver was closer to the front without ruining the design, I mean is the design based upon that front chamber or is the back chambers volume and port size/placement more whats making the change here? I mean to rephrase this, what's making this go 40hz instead of the 50hz from gsub?

In theory if we resized the box with dual drivers there could be a corner tri-angle port in every corner and another one down the top n bottom middle as if it was two cabs next to each other but without a middle board to split them.

Would love some help designing these if your game, to be honest, the biggest roadblock I'm having is just simply dealing with the design software, seems I always mess up something, I've never really got it working properly. I mean after ten years of being a sound tech I can trust my ears, problem is all this theory building before hand I can't exactly test-listen. Guess mdf is cheap enough that if we can come up with a design I'm game to build it, got a woodworking shop and a buddy whos willing to help out so the biggest issue here is coming up with a design that doesn't sound like poo or fart when I turn it up... those being the two biggest reasons why I haven't built anything yet, I wanted to be damn sure I was building something that would sound good before I built it.

Something I was wondering about is the benefits of adding more or taking away volume from the case, for example, yorkville, the local standard makes these ls801p subwoofers that due to the oversized case sound really boomy. Only problem is the scoop path they put on it has compression issues at louder volumes and makes what some lovingly call a "woosh" sound but I call a fart sound and greatly dislike the sound of it, this is why I no longer use them since you can't really turn them up without getting it, or you gota use a crossover and cut out the low end, something you want to keep as much of as possible on subs. Not really sure what I'm saying here, its just that the larger cases seem to help it be more effective, more boomy... till it hits the max of the port and starts farting.

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

@Mikkel,

This might also be a good starting point for you, to know how to recognise drivers optimal for reflex cabs.

https://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq4" rel="nofollow - https://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq4


 

Interesting read, but it didn't really point out much I didn't already know... if you want low hz bands look for a sub that is able to produce the low hz bands you want at acceptable spl/db, seems obvious that 50hz at 100+db is a better sub then one that has  50db or less.... but this isn't really what I was wondering about.

I mean to rephrase it, what in the TS specs do you look for when looking up drivers?

Or do you just put every driver into TS software and then look at the graph?

What do you do about drivers you don't have full TS specs for?

I personally feel that the TS softwares are not very user friendly and instead of learning about speaker building, designs ect, I'm trying to learn this software that I don't feel is really benefiting me in real world experiences and isn't educating me on anything other then how to use this software, that I seem to mess up and due to that, never get the information I want out of it due to it being not user friendly at all.

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Originally posted by Mikkel Mikkel wrote:



What exactly makes a driver ideally suited? I mean as I just clearly pointed out xmax isn't everything when the dayton drivers, while having more xmas, is not as loud as the rockville drivers, with the same wattage given to both, in the same dual 18 bass reflex cab.



No one said it's all about Xmax.

Originally posted by Mikkel Mikkel wrote:


So if its not xmax and its a combination of things, how does one find a new driver without test buying every driver? I mean you just told me that those drivers are suited for that, what in the specs shows that? Or is that just parroting speakers you've seen others use without knowing why?


Maybe if you spent some time reading past posts here and Google, you'll learn Speaker EBP is a good starting point, for deciding which drivers suit which cab types.

Then using some cab design software, you can deduce optimal cab/driver chamber sizes.
Some people here have been doing this for years, and can pass on knowledge gained from experience, without everyone needing to do the same footwork.

I have found WinISD to be one of the most precise and accurate, piece of software, for reflex cab design.
Especially with the excellent T/S parms calculator/entry.

http://www.linearteam.org/" rel="nofollow - http://www.linearteam.org/

The simulation regarding driver displacement, I found to be exceptionally helpful.

 

Maybe nobody here said xmax but if you look in the forums for what to look for in ts specs, you'll find alot of people talking about xmax, some saying its everything cuz you gota displace air to make bass, while others are saying its a combination of things and giving examples of lower xmax subs being more efficient, alot of case by case, sub by sub examples but no real explanation of what to look for in the ts specs. I have done ~alot~ of homework on this forums trying to educate myself and figure out a plan for my subs, this isn't my first account on this forums (forgot login to other cuz its been a couple years since I posted here last)

I'm sure winisd is very accurate, however user friendly it is not.

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Originally posted by saintzoilus saintzoilus wrote:

[QUOTE]

As for the tr 18b-1100's if they are anymore then $150/ea then it becomes a question of if one beats two rockvilles since I can get two for around $150 canadian.
 

Define beats? 

Louder? Yes.
Flatter response? No
Cheaper? Yes
Better sound? Who knows?


This is observation not criticism; you seem to value quantity, price and spl most. 

These drivers will fufil that. You're not going to convince anyone here they're the answer for us as others have different priorities. That said they seem to fufil your requirements.
 

Flat for.... Home audio? For... Studio use? What angle are you looking at this from? I'm looking at this as OUTDOOR PA

How come you need it flat for a techno party sub duty? 

Serious question.

I mean I can get it for mains that are playing a wide band from say 50-80hz up to 2-2.5k you'll want them to be flat.. But subs are playing a very very small band range and you want it to be as loud as possible in that band range.

If flat is so important, can you also explain to me why having it flat, for sub duty, is better then it being louder and cheaper? 

Again serious question.

I mean to me, one overpowering another driver that cost more is beating it, if the speaker can eclipse another speaker, in the same cab, with the same wattage (as in turn on and you no longer notice the other one is playing) then that is a "better" speaker "to me" since it is making better use of the power and space I'm giving it.


"you seem to value quantity, price and spl most."

I'd say this is accurate, but isn't this what everybody should be looking for? The best bang for your buck? I mean not everybody is rich enough to build a array of 18sound dual 21 cabs or powersofts m-force 40 inch sub as much as I want them they are out of my budget and power limits.... I mean just thinking about the genny power alone to power all of that is hurting my future kids wallet already I can feel it... And without a doubt a single 18sound dual 21 or a single powersoft m-force 40 would be louder and prob better, but at multiple times the price it makes building a wall out of something like this ~impossible~ for someone of my budget. Since the wall is the goal, the best way I can think of doing that is looking for 400-600w drivers so I can power multiples of them at once.

I mean again I'm trying to get the most I can out of limited genny power, quantity comes into play with that since I don't have unlimited power.


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 6:39pm
Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

Well, few months ago I got two 18" cheap MGR drivers for really low price, so I took them to the test.

However, those drivers are actually pretty good in 500litre bass reflex box I made just for fun :D
Much louder than I thought.  Amplifier was T.amp TA1400 and we played all the party night pretty hard, at least one hour at full power and clipping leds was blinking continuously.. no problems whatsoever! 
Why clipping? because I didnt care about those drivers, if they break then they break, not a big deal anyway.. but they survived that damn torture :)







Got a link or specs for these drivers?  If they are under $150/ea they are worth looking at.


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 7:06pm
Fs, Vas, Qes, BL, all play major part.

So does cone mass, even voice coil material, some say.

About 12 years ago, I once tried some JBL 2241, in random reflex design, just because I got the drivers for free..

The drivers always seemed to run into trouble in the 55hz region, with minor eq or when pushed.

Heard about WinISD, accurately simmed the cab and driver, and driver displacement indicated, driver would run into trouble, in that cab, with approx 550w power input, around 55hz peak.

Drivers sold, and replaced with PD186s, as they simmed much better, in WinISD, in that cab..
All done, lesson learnt.



-------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 7:27pm
With the time you'll have spent humming and harring and trying to justify the shitty Rockville drivers you could have earned enough to buy proper drivers :D

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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 9:40pm
My criteria for my own subs was best response 40-150/180 in a compact box that kicked hard and sounded very hi fi. I also wanted them light.

I used bms neo 15s.


Very different requirements from lev who uses sizable scoops. You only need to read levs posts to know he's picks drivers oh how they sound not just how loud they are.


So everyone has different needs and best is not exclusively about outright volume. For my needs my drivers will beat yours hollow regardless how many you can buy for the same money.

These drivers fit your requirements. Buy them. Try them.



Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

I have nothing constructive to add, I'm here for +1's and bumps


Well at least you admit it.

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

My criteria for my own subs was best response 40-150/180 in a compact box that kicked hard and sounded very hi fi. I also wanted them light. 

I used bms neo 15s.


Very different requirements from lev who uses sizable scoops. You only need to read levs posts to know he's picks drivers oh how they sound not just how loud they are. 


So everyone has different needs and best is not exclusively about outright volume. For my needs my drivers will beat yours hollow regardless how many you can buy for the same money. 

These drivers fit your requirements. Buy them. Try them. 

 

I'll take a look at them.

If its not "outright volume" what is better about these?

They seem to be selling multiple different 15s in 3 different classes, what model is it that your looking at that is so good while also being within budget?

From what I'm seeing these are all 1200w-1500w drivers for the extended low end... Do you think these would still be better if they are only powered by half or less watts? I ask since again for te 10th time I do not have the POWER for higher wattage subs, that is why I am looking for high efficiency low wattage drivers.

I looked at the 15n840 and at double the power draw it seems less efficient, so with the same power given to both speakers the rockville should be able to keep up since again I don't have 1200w-1500w to send to the bms, they'll only get like 400w-500w or so.... So this doesn't seem like a good option, I mean for the same wattage I could get 18sound drivers that would beat this bms 15's senseless... So I mean yeah I know, more wattage & more money is going to give you more powerful drivers, no brainer there, however I'm looking for low wattage high efficiency cuz I do NOT have unlimited power, I am running outdoors and am limited by genny power, to buy a 2nd genny like the one I have would cost way more then I'm thinking about spending on cabs, so its either upgrade the speakers and replace/sell the older ones ~OR~ buy a 2nd genny and be unable to buy any extra speakers this next upcoming season, there is not a budget to buy a 2nd genny AND buy high powered drivers AND new high powered amps. Like shit I get it my system isn't for you guys but the whole idea of throw away everything I have and get high powered drivers is kinda annoying to be continuously told from you guys.

Rockville:
  • Sensitivity: 101dB @ 1w/1m
bms:
  • 95 dB Sensitivity 1 W / 1 m

Originally posted by levyte357- levyte357- wrote:

Fs, Vas, Qes, BL, all play major part.

So does cone mass, even voice coil material, some say.

About 12 years ago, I once tried some JBL 2241, in random reflex design, just because I got the drivers for free..

The drivers always seemed to run into trouble in the 55hz region, with minor eq or when pushed.

Heard about WinISD, accurately simmed the cab and driver, and driver displacement indicated, driver would run into trouble, in that cab, with approx 550w power input, around 55hz peak.

Drivers sold, and replaced with PD186s, as they simmed much better, in WinISD, in that cab.. 
All done, lesson learnt.

 

These subs are at least 12 years newer then, I'd like to think alot has changed in the last over a decade, I mean class D amps are out now for example, why must speakers be stuck in the stone age if amps have evolved in that time?

With that being said the goal here is not just to slap these rockvilles in any random cab like your suggesting, it would be to build a cab for them that works well for them, thats why I'm here on speaker building forums asking questions before I do anything.


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by saintzoilus saintzoilus wrote:



I'll take a look at them.



Why???????

The entire point of my post was they fit my requirements not yours.

The Yorkvilles fit yours, as you've said 4 times. As ive said three times and as everyone else has observed everytime they have suggested something else!

Just buy them!


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Originally posted by saintzoilus saintzoilus wrote:



I'll take a look at them.



Why???????

The entire point of my post was they fit my requirements not yours.

The Yorkvilles fit yours, as you've said 4 times. As ive said three times and as everyone else has observed everytime they have suggested something else!

Just buy them!


???

I've said multiple times I do NOT Like the sounds of the ls801p's that are the local standard and around for sale. They produce a "woosh" or "fart" sound that I really dislike, they are also way above my power requirements cuz they are self powered so they pull more then they produce to the sub cuz this is before class d amps. They also cost around 2 grand for one, I could build 5-6 dual 1 cabs for that, you starting to see a pattern? As a self powered sub they also pull around 20amps out of the wall in order to give that 1500w (so they claim) to the 1200w sub. That same 20amp is more draw then one of my touring grade amps I'd use to power 8 speakers. So I could have ONE ls801p or eight 18's in 4 dual 18 cabs.

I've said multiple times that I have ZERO interest in stacking or buying yorkville subs, locally costing $450/ea for just the drivers I have that are 500w, they are over priced and are NOT a good match for what I'm doing.

What part of that do you read a good fit? Cuz I'm straight up saying they are not.

Unless you mean rockville instead of yorkville, then you'd be right, these rockvilles seem to fit my goal better then anything else, thats why I'm asking about OTHER BUDGET SPEAKERS and CAB BUILDS THAT MIGHT WORK WITH THESE DRIVERS OR OTHER LOW WATTAGE DRIVERS... But instead I get a bunch of people getting mad at me cuz I'm not using a 1-2 high powered drivers and my requirements are not the same as theirs? Like I'm not looking for a mini system for my home like most of you guys seem to be, I don't need it to be small for "easier hook up and setup" so these are NOT my requirements, they are all of yours being projected upon me as if I should care about those things too when I don't.

What exactly is it I'm just buying? Yorkville does NOT have pre made single passive or double passive 18s for sale, they don't exist, so how can I buy them? The pair of double 18s I have now that are yorkville, are old and discontinued, they sound great, however getting another pair is nearly impossible since yorkville no longer sells them and nobody has them for sale, I was extremely lucky to pick them up via craigslist. I could pick rockvilles single 18s up for around $300/pair already made and in cases but they use mdf and since I'm using them outdoors I don't really trust that and I don't view it as worth the investment when I can build my own double 18 cab for around the same price out of birch.


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 10:52pm
I've contributed heavily and with genuine concern to your thread, maybe you don't find it constructive because it goes against the decision you've more or less come to by yourself, of which I suggested you may as well go for it!

In the interests of presenting the merits of the alternatives, not necessarily for your benefit but for the benefit of others who may be reading in the same position, I will continue to present any new angle I can come up with to illustrate those merits.

You seem to be taking a profoundly anti-science approach which goes against the best practices of the forum. It's possible these cheap drivers will perform up to a standard you find acceptable, but given your approach to the final stage of your signal chain, stated priorites, and lack of understanding of sound in general, I dare say the signal by the time it reaches your subs isn't good enough to benefit from the more expensive drivers anyway.

It isn't immediately clear with these Rockbottom drivers exactly where the corners will have been cut in the design stage, and where the quality and performance will lack versus a higher cost component, but big companies like Thomann make their drivers in huge bulk in Chinese factories also, and knock out products with very tight margins, and they also go factory to retail direct.

There's only so much you can practically cut when it comes to devices driven principally by raw material and labour costs. Lower grade ferrite, lower quality glues, lower QA standards, sweatshop working conditions, falsified TS parameters, etc.

As mentioned previously it mostly comes down to whether 2 will sufficiently outperform 1 of the alternatives in optimal usage. This may not swing it for your specific 'visual impact of a wall of bass' requirement, but it is something others should think about.

The other issue is you seem to fundamentally misunderstand the idea of a forum and are coming across as extremely arrogant and entitled - the discussion isn't entirely for your benefit but you seem to think that it is because you initiated it.

-------------
Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 10:54pm
Yes i meant rockville.

No ones mad at you? Im sure as hell not. I think you've found a solution that suits and should go for it.

Mini system for home? Don't be rude. Most of the guys on here have both knowledge and systems beyond yours.


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

I've contributed heavily and with genuine concern to your thread, maybe you don't find it constructive because it goes against the decision you've more or less come to by yourself, of which I suggested you may as well go for it!

In the interests of presenting the merits of the alternatives, not necessarily for your benefit but for the benefit of others who may be reading in the same position, I will continue to present any new angle I can come up with to illustrate those merits.

You seem to be taking a profoundly anti-science approach which goes against the best practices of the forum. It's possible these cheap drivers will perform up to a standard you find acceptable, but given your approach to the final stage of your signal chain, stated priorites, and lack of understanding of sound in general, I dare say the signal by the time it reaches your subs isn't good enough to benefit from the more expensive drivers anyway.

It isn't immediately clear with these Rockbottom drivers exactly where the corners will have been cut in the design stage, and where the quality and performance will lack versus a higher cost component, but big companies like Thomann make their drivers in huge bulk in Chinese factories also, and knock out products with very tight margins, and they also go factory to retail direct.

There's only so much you can practically cut when it comes to devices driven principally by raw material and labour costs. Lower grade ferrite, lower quality glues, lower QA standards, sweatshop working conditions, falsified TS parameters, etc.

As mentioned previously it mostly comes down to whether 2 will sufficiently outperform 1 of the alternatives in optimal usage. This may not swing it for your specific 'visual impact of a wall of bass' requirement, but it is something others should think about.


I've been pounding them for a year, if they where going to die or start farting or sounding like shit they would've done it already by now since I'm playing them for 8-10+ hours straight each time I use them, hell there was a event where I had them playing straight for 3 days without any issues.

I understand your concerns about the price, but continuing to grind the point home like high wattage drivers is the only option (when I've been clear its not the option I want due to outdoor power limits) isn't helpful, even if you feel it is.

From what I can see, since these drivers are very close to the peavey BW (that others seem to love using for subs) and from personal experience, they are not as trash as your making them out to be. I mean 20-30 years ago these would've been really good drivers, the only reason your bashing them is cuz there are newer higher wattage drivers in the market now, but back in the day people used lower wattage drivers just fine for huge concerts for huge names. I mean granted they came up with some cool designs like that quad sub box but the result was the same, using multiple 500w drivers they produced a loud sub bass when stacked. Again I'm not trying to build just one, I'd like to stack these and with that lower the hz extention and gain more db by coupling, something you cant do with a single high powered driver.

Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:


The other issue is you seem to fundamentally misunderstand the idea of a forum and are coming across as extremely arrogant and entitled - the discussion isn't entirely for your benefit but you seem to think that it is because you initiated it.
 

So your saying despite me starting this subject to talk about this subject, "I" am being arrogant cuz I'm trying to get you to stay on subject instead of derailing the subject by bashing suggestions, myself and what we're talking about cuz I don't have the same goals as you and due to that, I can't agree with your suggestions since they are not a good fit for me?

You honestly think that way? That you, being unable to stay on subject, is somehow not being rude as right now? I mean, I'm not gaining anything useful from talking to you and your not being very friendly, what benefit do you think your adding to the conversation aside of the obvious: if you have unlimited funds and unlimited power, that higher wattage drivers will be better. Like no shit sherlock, glad you solved that mystery for us. What confuses me is if your not here to talk on subject, why are you even here? Just to start shit for your own amusement? Cool glad we sorted that out.


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

Yes i meant rockville. 

No ones mad at you? Im sure as hell not. I think you've found a solution that suits and should go for it.
 

I agree, I think its a solution that best fits my situation *so far* so thats why I'm thinking about it and looking for other options that could possibly be better while still being within my price and power limits.

Seems folks like Hemisphere are being more rude or upset then they should be when they can't get over simple facts like me not having unlimited power or unlimited money for high wattage drivers & amp upgrades, I would have to buy a 2nd genny and that would be my next years budget completely eaten up, meaning I wouldn't have much money left over to buy these high powered drivers everyone is suggesting I buy instead, or if I bought the subs without a new genny, I wouldn't have the amp power... and if I bought the amp instead of the genny or subs then I wouldn't be able to use it on my genny. This is the main reason why I'm trying to relocate my power to new drivers instead of recreating my entire sound system with brand new gear at multiple times the value, I already have it and I don't have unlimited funds, so makes sense to use what I have if its not broken.

I mean I get it, folks with unlimited power coming from a house or a venue might want a higher wattage more expensive driver, but thats not the situation I'm in so its kinda lame to have people continuously driving that point home as if I don't already know that 1:1 higher wattage drivers are better... but thats not my situation, again I'm limited to a 30amp and 20amp line that I can use to power 3 of my amps fully without blowing any brakers, this leaves me roughly 5amp for led lights and turn tables/mixer/live mixer. 


Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 11:45pm
Originally posted by saintzoilus saintzoilus wrote:

Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

Well, few months ago I got two 18" cheap MGR drivers for really low price, so I took them to the test.

However, those drivers are actually pretty good in 500litre bass reflex box I made just for fun :D
Much louder than I thought.  Amplifier was T.amp TA1400 and we played all the party night pretty hard, at least one hour at full power and clipping leds was blinking continuously.. no problems whatsoever! 
Why clipping? because I didnt care about those drivers, if they break then they break, not a big deal anyway.. but they survived that damn torture :)







Got a link or specs for these drivers?  If they are under $150/ea they are worth looking at.

Fs 23Hz
Qms 2.44
Qes 0.37
Qts 0.32
Vas 629 L
xmax 6.5mm
power handling marked 350Watts
Voice coil diam 3"

price: 99eur (europe)



Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 11:47pm
Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

Originally posted by saintzoilus saintzoilus wrote:

Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

Well, few months ago I got two 18" cheap MGR drivers for really low price, so I took them to the test.

However, those drivers are actually pretty good in 500litre bass reflex box I made just for fun :D
Much louder than I thought.  Amplifier was T.amp TA1400 and we played all the party night pretty hard, at least one hour at full power and clipping leds was blinking continuously.. no problems whatsoever! 
Why clipping? because I didnt care about those drivers, if they break then they break, not a big deal anyway.. but they survived that damn torture :)







Got a link or specs for these drivers?  If they are under $150/ea they are worth looking at.

Fs 23Hz
Qms 2.44
Qes 0.37
Qts 0.32
Vas 629 L
xmax 6.5mm
power handling marked 350Watts
Voice coil diam 3"

price: 99eur (europe)



Hey that doesn't look half bad!

Got a model number so I can look it up?


Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 24 November 2017 at 11:50pm
Originally posted by saintzoilus saintzoilus wrote:

Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

Originally posted by saintzoilus saintzoilus wrote:

Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

Well, few months ago I got two 18" cheap MGR drivers for really low price, so I took them to the test.

However, those drivers are actually pretty good in 500litre bass reflex box I made just for fun :D
Much louder than I thought.  Amplifier was T.amp TA1400 and we played all the party night pretty hard, at least one hour at full power and clipping leds was blinking continuously.. no problems whatsoever! 
Why clipping? because I didnt care about those drivers, if they break then they break, not a big deal anyway.. but they survived that damn torture :)







Got a link or specs for these drivers?  If they are under $150/ea they are worth looking at.

Fs 23Hz
Qms 2.44
Qes 0.37
Qts 0.32
Vas 629 L
xmax 6.5mm
power handling marked 350Watts
Voice coil diam 3"

price: 99eur (europe)



Hey that doesn't look half bad!

Got a model number so I can look it up?

Sure, MGR p-1800w  :)



Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 25 November 2017 at 12:21am
Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

Originally posted by saintzoilus saintzoilus wrote:

Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

Originally posted by saintzoilus saintzoilus wrote:

Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

Well, few months ago I got two 18" cheap MGR drivers for really low price, so I took them to the test.

However, those drivers are actually pretty good in 500litre bass reflex box I made just for fun :D
Much louder than I thought.  Amplifier was T.amp TA1400 and we played all the party night pretty hard, at least one hour at full power and clipping leds was blinking continuously.. no problems whatsoever! 
Why clipping? because I didnt care about those drivers, if they break then they break, not a big deal anyway.. but they survived that damn torture :)







Got a link or specs for these drivers?  If they are under $150/ea they are worth looking at.

Fs 23Hz
Qms 2.44
Qes 0.37
Qts 0.32
Vas 629 L
xmax 6.5mm
power handling marked 350Watts
Voice coil diam 3"

price: 99eur (europe)



Hey that doesn't look half bad!

Got a model number so I can look it up?

Sure, MGR p-1800w  :)



Looks like a pretty efficient driver to me, I'd like to see the ts chart vs the rockville driver tho to see how they match up verse each other at the same 350-400w

@mikkel

anyway you can hook me up with that? The software is really not very user friendly so its my main roadblock when looking at drivers or coming up with a build.


Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 25 November 2017 at 2:02am
I'm curious about the stated xmax, which formula or method is used?


Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 25 November 2017 at 11:53am
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

I'm curious about the stated xmax, which formula or method is used?

who knows, specs are only saying "voice coil overhang (xmax) 6.5mm"
Well, next weekend my friend has party night again.. MGR's will get some punishment :))
  



Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 25 November 2017 at 2:41pm
If you're going to build your own boxes its worth persevering with winISD. No its not something you can fire up and just use with no effort, but its not really a very hard thing to learn to use and there's plenty of help online to learn it.

I found the process of using it exceptionally informative in ending up with a box that did what i wanted and understanding how the factors involved affect the output.


Posted By: Mikkel
Date Posted: 25 November 2017 at 4:40pm
Hi. Sorry i cant help at mo, wont be home till monday/tuesday.




Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 25 November 2017 at 5:37pm
So I just wanted to apologise if I came off snobbish or narrow minded over this. I can definitely see the rationale behind considering these ultra-budget drivers, but I think looking at the low watt rating is oversimplifying things enormously, and so like a stuck record I'm going to return to my suggestion of 1 higher quality driver with 3 or 4x cost vs two Rockvilles, but with a little more detail:

So we obviously get the initial 3dB boost from doubling the amp power going into each driver, leaving us with a further 3dB to make up before the one quality driver is outperforming the budget driver. Any more than that and it will actually outperform 2 Rockvilles!

We can see from the plot posted by Mikkel on page 3, that the Transparence driver enjoys a 3dB boost at 40Hz and 2.5dB boost at 120Hz over the Rockville in the same enclosure volume, and on average across the passband is around 2-2.5dB depending where you cross.

So this just leaves 0.5dB to make up, and you will get more than that back from lower power compression losses with a higher wattage, higher quality driver. 1-1.5dB even.

So one quality woofer with the same amp power is at least equal and possibly 1dB louder than two Rockvilles, If the visual impact of a wall of bins is a deciding factor, just build wide shallow 1x18 reflex bins   

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Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 26 November 2017 at 3:50am
Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

I'm curious about the stated xmax, which formula or method is used?


I'm also curious about this if you could elaborate sometime next week when you can @mikkel?

Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

Originally posted by smitske96 smitske96 wrote:

I'm curious about the stated xmax, which formula or method is used?

who knows, specs are only saying "voice coil overhang (xmax) 6.5mm"
Well, next weekend my friend has party night again.. MGR's will get some punishment :))
  

 

Gona be honest, I like the look of these drivers alot so far from what I can see on the spec sheet, the fact they are 350w too is really nice since I'll be able to power them perfectly. Verse say 600w+ drivers I know without buying another amp I wouldn't be able to drive them fully. So if the chart turns out good these could be worth the extra money to me for the efficiency.

Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

If you're going to build your own boxes its worth persevering with winISD. No its not something you can fire up and just use with no effort, but its not really a very hard thing to learn to use and there's plenty of help online to learn it. 

I found the process of using it exceptionally informative in ending up with a box that did what i wanted and understanding how the factors involved affect the output.
 

I for sure would like to learn the software a bit better its just time consuming, I'll have to wait till I get back home around monday/tuesday. I mean I agree, it would be informative being able to use it and check different drivers, I've just always had issues with the non user friendly interface, lack of any 3d graphics or any real meaningful visuals.

Last year I was trying really hard to do this (before I found used gear and sunk my money into that instead) I ragequit on winisd and tried term-pro but its mainly for car audio.... I think my main issue here is I'd like to design a cab in some kind of 3d cad software but be able to run spec's off the design, so I can visually see what happens when I change up the shape of the box... instead of what I'm viewing as alot of guess work as for things like port placement and shape, how deep/shallow or wide/skinny the box is within the same volume limits and how that effects how it sounds. I mean currently I'm not getting any of this user friendly information from any software, instead the best are a bunch of numbers and codes on a screen and a jpg of a generic design of that type at best. I mean I get it works, but I also feel this is really sub par software in the sense that its not very user friendly at all, there are massive upgrades winisd for example could have when it comes to showing the 3d design of a box and the variables of different designs. Thats why I was looking at already designed builds such as the gsub or the ookpik double 18s, but I'm now leaning towards trying to design something fresh for these budget drivers... so I'm back here asking a bunch of questions and doing homework before I start spending money haha.

Originally posted by Mikkel Mikkel wrote:

Hi. Sorry i cant help at mo, wont be home till monday/tuesday.


 

All good my man I'm out of town till monday too.



Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 26 November 2017 at 6:33am
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:


...So we obviously get the initial 3dB boost from doubling the amp power going into each driver....



See here is your mistake right here. I DO NOT HAVE A WAY OF DOUBLING THE AMP POWER due to my outdoor power limits AND the fact I don't have the budget for a new high powered amp OR a high powered genny. Again I am trying to use the amps I ALREADY HAVE under the power limits I already am using.

This "option" you keep hammering home is already invalid.

I'd much rather have 8x drivers in 4x cabs laid on their sides to the one amp going 2ohm/both channel, instead of bridge'n it for 1-2 high powered ones at 4ohm/one cannel, again my 20 foot wide stage (with extra 5 foot on each side for dance platforms boarder'n it to "frame" in where the sound system should go) is going to look really lonely on the sub end if I only have 1-2 cabs with a bunch of double 15s. Again these are for OUTDOORs, so its NOT maxing a room cuz there is no room. Instead having more "area" where people can be 1-5-10 feet away from the subs is more effective for what we're doing since this is now a 20F x 1F to 5F area (space people can stand in) where they will feel like they are next to the subwoofers, verse one or two subwoofers your going to seriously limit the amount of area close to it.. The point: the farther away you get from the single sub or even two subs the less your going to feel it and since there is only two of them there is only so much space around them for people to be "close" to them since thats where most people seem to want to be.. but would not be able to be if there was only 1-2 subs, it would also throw off the balance of full range cabs to subs, meaning people would be closer to the full range cabs making them louder then the subs due to them (the dancer) being closer to mains then subs.

I mean I get it your crunching numbers on paper and playing theory's, but I'm talking about a real world application for this outdoors situation that I have alot of experience in and have tested many things in. I've already tried your idea of using some $300 b52 1000w drivers but I was only able to power two of them and while they did kick ass, they didn't kick much ass at lower wattages and the 8x passive 400w's worked out better for this real world application of spreading the close range listening area. They also died driving them at 2400w to the pair so I was extremely unimpressed to find out their rms was lower then that and couldnt handle the power required to make them sound better then the 400w ones.. only drivers I've ever killed in ten years.. They also sucked being powered at lower wattage in the chain with the other 400ws, it needed more power to be loud in order to Keep Up or beat the 400ws, meaning the 400ws would be louder at the same wattage since thats what they want to be driven at to fully work properly.

I mean I've already played around with this with rental subs, 1500w subs (1200w subs being driven by a 1500w so they say) vs 8x 400w single 18s and the 8x 400w single 18s are *WAY* better then a single 1500w self powered sub for *SPREADING* the bass across a 20 foot area so everybody feels like they are "near" the bass. Granted I was only able to do a single powered one vs 8x 

I mean if you can admit your coming across snobbish why not to look at this from another point of view as if I'm not a total retard just cuz I'm having issues with a non user friendly software you guys seem to know well. I'm not building your dream system, I'm building MY system. How you gona knock me for trying to do something? When did it become uncool to try something you want to do?

I have enough experience to know what I want out of a real world application, I have a list of requirements for the system and now the goal is to try to make it reality or as close as possible to it... not try shit I have already tried and waste more money when I know what will work for this application already, again I'm trying to replace the need to rent subs that are already doing this EXACT job.. so again you telling me how I gota use 1-2 when I ~already know better and have proven otherwise for this application~ isn't very useful.. however if you wanted to add something useful you could find some cool 350-500w drivers that are very efficient at lower wattage. It "doesn't have to be" the rockville, but its just the best bang for the buck that I'm seeing around and with personal experience, in the yorkville double 18 cab as replacement drivers for two drivers I blew, they are keeping up with the 400w rentals so this is why I'm thinking about making cases for them, you can't tell much difference between these and the 400w rentals, both are very loud but I think the yorkville double 18 cab w/ rockvilles sounds way better cuz of the yorkville dual 18 sw1000 cab, I was thinking for a while about making some cabs like that, they are large, sound good, right wattage, they fit my requirements pretty well... But thats why I'm here to look for other options *Within the requirements* and power requirements and speaker spread are two of them, so this is why (for the millionth time) I am looking at 350-500w drivers and trying to find the best one (price vs performance) for a dual 18 sub cab, I'm not even really solid on what type but I'm leaning towards some kind of bass reflex, they seem like the best since they sound really good and use large cabs.

I think I have humored you enough with enough explaining at this point, I would thank you to either join the conversation with something constructive (cab design, speaker that looks good ect) instead of repeatedly telling me not to follow my requirements for a real world application and instead follow your well thought out theory on paper that doesn't apply to my situation of this real world application very well at all. In short, if you want to add to the conversation, sure, do that, but continuously telling me not to do what I'm already going to do regardless of what you have to say is just pretty troll, its unwelcome and not helpful, its not adding anything constructive or anything I didn't already know; unlimited money and unlimited power will get you huge wattage drivers that will be more powerful, this is a no duh situation, however that is *Not my situation.


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 26 November 2017 at 6:58am
Double posted sorry :S


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 26 November 2017 at 7:43am
If you at least tried to understand my suggestion I would stop making it.

I didn't say you need to use more amp power. I didn't say put 1500w into 1 or 2 cabs.

If your current plan is to power 8 drivers with 400w each, then you can surely also power 4 drivers with 800w each. If you want to spread the bass across a wide area for people to be up close to it, just build single 18 cabs that are as wide as double 18 cabs. That's my suggestion.

Of course 8 Rockvilles will outperform 1 or 2 quality drivers (especially in terms of your 'feeling the bass' requirement, due to the sheer cone area you get from 8x 18" drivers). They won't outperform 4 though, with the exact same amp power.


If you make a wise selection on a higher quality driver, spend less money building less bins (which can be just as visually imposing if that's important to you), and maybe even spend a little more than you would have done with the Rockvilles, (perhaps accounting for the additional resale value a quality component will have when you come to replace and upgrade), then you'll surely be rewarded with a higher sound quality for your system as well, and isn't that worth something to you?

Edit: I should clarify that not all high quality drivers will outperform the Rockvilles for SPL performance with the same amp power, and your experience may reflect that, but Mikkel's posted plot of the Transparence driver at least suggests it will.


I just spotted the hole in my argument about saving time and money building less bins if you built wide singles but you have a misconception about what is making bass 'spread out' over a wide area. It has almost nothing to do with having a wider array of bins. It's a question of total cone area and maximum excursion. 4 high excursion woofers will give you what you need, and the other benefit is you could consider more demanding designs like tapped horns and bandpass subs, then we're not talking marginal, but massive gains in output for the same amp power. Exactly what you need for power limited outdoor applcations.

You seem open to the idea of more exotic enclosures, but hose Rockville drivers will do basic reflex and that's it.

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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 26 November 2017 at 9:46am
The basic point of winISD for reflex is to get the volume and port sizes right.

Once you know how much internal volume, number of ports, their diameter and length you can design the cab however you like within reason as long a you keep those parameters the same.

And btw, you ought to be thankful to hemisphere, his point is valid. What you misunderstand as him trying to hammer his point home is actually him politely trying to educate you in order to help you. Not many would have persevered in the face of your responses.

Im not saying it's the solution you need but you should certainly understand his point when making your choice.

Thinking of more exotic, what amps are you running?


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 26 November 2017 at 10:59am
Let me be blunt here.
If you think all of us trying to explain to you that making half the number of boxes with better drivers are wrong, please stop repeating the same rationale that you have in your head and just go build whatever you think is best for you.
As of terms of cost, moving 4 double 18s will cost lot more over time then two double 18s. So think transportation and storage too.
Building two subs instead of 4 will also save a lot.
If your idea was to use the amp at 2 ohms so you use the full potential of the amps, then get the 18s in 4 ohms, thus having two 2ohm g-subs.

This is the last effort from me on this topic. Good luck! 


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 26 November 2017 at 1:09pm
There's been barely any discussion of sound quality in this thread either. As if high fidelity sound doesn't have a value! Anecdotal satisfaction reports aside, a $59.95 18" driver physically cannot produce high fidelity sound. The parts and labour required to achieve it just can't be done at that budget level. If they could then there would be more competing drivers in that budget range.

That's why you struggle so hard to find alternatives at even vaguely comparable prices. Most self-respecting brands just wouldn't turn out such garbage. $120 is about the minimum, so how are they doing it for half of that? By cutting corners! Your audience deserves better, and moreover, even if 99% of them don't give a shit (or don't think they do), delivering quality to them is still the economically sound choice here.

If you're running your own events and people are paying to attend those events (from what I gather, that's what you're doing, please correct me if I'm wrong), then the quality of the sound you produce will have a value to you. If you're hiring out your system to others, same applies. Putting your finger on exactly what value sound quality will have to your event or rental business is difficult, it's such an ethereal parameter, you can't measure it, but I would advise that you think of it like this:

Let's say you run 12 events a year and you expect to run your drivers for 3 years before replacing them, so 36 events. If you run them carefully you could make it through far more than that. For the sake of argument we'll say 150 person capacity, of which 50 will be regulars and 100 will be one off/occasional punters.

Every one off/occasional punter has the potential to convert into a regular if they enjoy the event enough, right? So from a purely pragmatic financial perspective, that's a goal to keep in mind. 

So you could spend $480 on 8 Rockville drivers and another $480 on 4 double 18 reflex bins, or you could spend $1000 on 4 higher quality drivers and $480 on 4 extra large reflex bins (to spread out visually or to aid those people who want to dance right in front of subs..not behaviour I think should be endorsed personally but there we go), or 4x tapped horns, or bandpass.

So you would need to spend an extra $500 or so. Or an extra $250 if you build less bins. I totally appreciate that's no trivial amount, and to spend $500 extra for half as many drivers seems crazy, but if you gain an appreciable increase in sound quality in doing so, how much of an impact would that need to have on your events for you to make that money back and then some? Not much!

If the drivers last you 36 events you would only need to gain an extra $14 per event to make that $500 back. If you could gain an extra $45 per event you'd make it back more than three times over. That could be yielded from as little as two or three occasional punters converting to regulars, or telling their friends about those outdoor events with amazing bass, etc.

You'd gain the professional satisfaction of delivering quality sound, and your job would be more enjoyable if you appreciate good sound yourself. Buying new woofers for your rig when it will play dozens of times for thousands of people should be an investment in your sound and in your audience that reflects this. Rockville drivers are a poor investment.

The other thing to say is be ambitious! Aim high and have confidence that opportunities to scale your operation will open up to you if you take a serious approach to delivering quality. You could always build more bins later as your investment begins to pay off.


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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 26 November 2017 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

There's been barely any discussion of sound quality in this thread either. As if high fidelity sound doesn't have a value! Anecdotal satisfaction reports aside, a $59.95 18" driver physically cannot produce high fidelity sound. The parts and labour required to achieve it just can't be done at that budget level. If they could then there would be more competing drivers in that budget range.

That's why you struggle so hard to find alternatives at even vaguely comparable prices. Most self-respecting brands just wouldn't turn out such garbage. $120 is about the minimum, so how are they doing it for half of that? By cutting corners! Your audience deserves better, and moreover, even if 99% of them don't give a shit (or don't think they do), delivering quality to them is still the economically sound choice here.

If you're running your own events and people are paying to attend those events (from what I gather, that's what you're doing, please correct me if I'm wrong), then the quality of the sound you produce will have a value to you. If you're hiring out your system to others, same applies. Putting your finger on exactly what value sound quality will have to your event or rental business is difficult, it's such an ethereal parameter, you can't measure it, but I would advise that you think of it like this:

Let's say you run 12 events a year and you expect to run your drivers for 3 years before replacing them, so 36 events. If you run them carefully you could make it through far more than that. For the sake of argument we'll say 150 person capacity, of which 50 will be regulars and 100 will be one off/occasional punters.

Every one off/occasional punter has the potential to convert into a regular if they enjoy the event enough, right? So from a purely pragmatic financial perspective, that's a goal to keep in mind. 

So you could spend $480 on 8 Rockville drivers and another $480 on 4 double 18 reflex bins, or you could spend $1000 on 4 higher quality drivers and $480 on 4 extra large reflex bins (to spread out visually or to aid those people who want to dance right in front of subs..not behaviour I think should be endorsed personally but there we go), or 4x tapped horns, or bandpass.

So you would need to spend an extra $500 or so. Or an extra $250 if you build less bins. I totally appreciate that's no trivial amount, and to spend $500 extra for half as many drivers seems crazy, but if you gain an appreciable increase in sound quality in doing so, how much of an impact would that need to have on your events for you to make that money back and then some? Not much!

If the drivers last you 36 events you would only need to gain an extra $14 per event to make that $500 back. If you could gain an extra $45 per event you'd make it back more than three times over. That could be yielded from as little as two or three occasional punters converting to regulars, or telling their friends about those outdoor events with amazing bass, etc.

You'd gain the professional satisfaction of delivering quality sound, and your job would be more enjoyable if you appreciate good sound yourself. Buying new woofers for your rig when it will play dozens of times for thousands of people should be an investment in your sound and in your audience that reflects this. Rockville drivers are a poor investment.

The other thing to say is be ambitious! Aim high and have confidence that opportunities to scale your operation will open up to you if you take a serious approach to delivering quality. You could always build more bins later as your investment begins to pay off.

😎😎😎😎😎😎


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 26 November 2017 at 11:15pm
https://www.parts-express.com/open-box-faitalpro-18fh510-18-professional-subwoofer-8-ohm--294-1302" rel="nofollow - https://www.parts-express.com/open-box-faitalpro-18fh510-18-professional-subwoofer-8-ohm--294-1302

Small discount on these Faital drivers at Partsexpress takes them to $250. Good match for 800w amp power. 8.5mm xmax (says 9.25mm but Faital is a little overoptimistic),


Loves to be loaded to a massive reflex and will give you that 30Hz you were after too! As for quality I've seen these woofers used in audiophile projects with good results, the response plot is smooth (and the measured plot I saw even smoother than the datasheet!), distortion is low, 100dB/Watt, also suits tapped horns (just about)

-------------
Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: saintzoilus
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 5:49am
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

https://www.parts-express.com/open-box-faitalpro-18fh510-18-professional-subwoofer-8-ohm--294-1302" rel="nofollow - https://www.parts-express.com/open-box-faitalpro-18fh510-18-professional-subwoofer-8-ohm--294-1302

Small discount on these Faital drivers at Partsexpress takes them to $250. Good match for 800w amp power. 8.5mm xmax (says 9.25mm but Faital is a little overoptimistic),


Loves to be loaded to a massive reflex and will give you that 30Hz you were after too! As for quality I've seen these woofers used in audiophile projects with good results, the response plot is smooth (and the measured plot I saw even smoother than the datasheet!), distortion is low, 100dB/Watt, also suits tapped horns (just about)


Faital:
  • Nominal Diameter18"
  • Power Handling (RMS)600 Watts
  • Power Handling (max)1200 Watts
  • Impedance8 ohms
  • Frequency Response30 to 2,500 Hz
  • Sensitivity98 dB 1W/1m
  • Voice Coil Diameter3"



    Rockville:
    • Frequency Response: 26 Hz to 500 Hz
    • Sensitivity: 101dB @ 1w/1m


You even read the specs before you start going off on your rants? The rockville has higher sensitivity, the one you quoted is not 100 its 98 and it goes up to 2500hz? I'm looking at something more specialized for low end. and this is 600w not 800w 4ohm. These do not look any better of a option, yet they are over 3 times the price... no thank you.

Again I've owned these subs for a year and they are not as bad as your making them out to be, whatever trash or fart you think they are going to do, they have not done it yet so I don't see the harm in designing a cab with mdf I already have, with drivers I already have, using amp power I already have.

I used to have 1000w drivers, I used to rent 1500w cabs, they both do not work as well for this situation as the line of rental single 400ws do, I'm sorry you don't agree or that it brakes your logic but reality doesn't line up with your opinion, sorry, this is the way I'll be going regardless of having to repeatedly explain it to you.

Why I gota trash everything and buy all new cuz you want me to? I don't so kindly invest your efforts elsewhere since while I see you trying really hard to get your point across; its completely moot since I have already made my mind up with what I am doing, I just need a design. Meaning, nothing you can say will change my mind about the requirements of this project since I have already tried many different things and found out what works best: multiple 18s at 400w (roughly)


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 7:15am
You're the only one ranting.

Learn winisd. Its not hard. Then go build your boxes.

All you have to do is put in the ts parameters. Its a few minutes work then you can play with the volume and ports to see what works.


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 7:20am
I took the 100dB figure from the plot on the datasheet. There are points on that plot where it reaches 101dB also but it's mostly 99-100.

Faital lists average, Rockville lists peak, assuming their numbers are reliable which I wouldn't.

I have absolutely no issue with you doing it your way. It's just you who have an issue with hearing alternative suggestions. The Faitals are more than 4x the price...and look at that weedy magnet! must be all that retail markup I guess.

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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 7:28am
This might help

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/diy-subwoofers-general-discussion/6330-winisd-pro-tutorial-download-detailed-guide-how-use-winisd-pro.html#/topics/6330" rel="nofollow - winISD tutorial

And i found this useful

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/148729-correctly-winisd.html" rel="nofollow - entering ts params tips

I think both are winisd pro.

If you Google help with winisd the first result is the samaritans... perhaps its harder than i think!


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 9:18am
The difficulty we're having here is you think you can tell everything there is to know about a driver from a cursory glance at the sheet of specifications which you admit yourself you don't understand, then you back that up with ludicrous anecdotal experiences like one high power 18" vs EIGHT 'low power' woofers, and you make out like lower power handling is the only downside.

I would like to hear how you make sense of the price on this 500w RCF 15" driver https://www.parts-express.com/open-box-rcf-l15-554k-15-woofer-speaker--294-866

Typically around $350,for a 15" 500w ferrite driver. Must be some sort of joke, right? Or maybe it's just very well engineered and built to a high standard from quality components, which will translate into a night and day difference in quality if used as part of a well thought out signal chain.

The trouble with the Rockvilles is that they're a false economy for the intended purpose, which is as one (critical) component in a set of professional tools that interacts directly with thousands of end users. It's not a set of toys for your car to blast a billion dB at an SPL metre, they're the monitors through which the artists at your events will project their creativity. The resolution of those monitors is important.

Your time and money in building the boxes, maintaining them, storing and transporting them, upgrading/replacing them, will all eventually dwarf that initial discrepancy in component costs.

I'm not saying the Rockvilles are bad for $59.95 but they are bad as part of a system which over time will cost you thousands of $ on top of the initial outlay of components, and if used with passion and care should pay for itself.

The frustrating thing is you clearly have a lot of time and passion for developing your system, and it sounds like it gets a lot of use, so why not take a thorough approach to doing it well? Your ears will thank you, your audience will thank you, the artists will thank you.

This forum is littered with examples of people who went the extra mile to deliver quality in their systems, and were offered frequent and heartfelt thanks for that directly by artists and audience. People appreciate good sound!

It's the little differences people pick up on. Most don't even have the knowledge to properly articulate it, or will atttrubute the quality to the artist or DJ, but it all filters through and the end result is the same - a better quality event.


-------------
Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: concept-10
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 10:05am
This is a great thread, you want to put these cheap drivers in a g sub, the tuning of a g sub ( a reflex box) can very easily be designed for them by almost anyone on this forum, they will sound ok, however you are being offered good sound advice to make it a whole lot better but you take it as a personal attack, you seem obsessed with the t s peramiters of your cheap drivers which I guarantee are not correct, instead of having a go at people who are only offering advice just build your boxes, simple.


Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 10:31am
Well I do have experience about cheap 18" and high quality 18" drivers. 

Yes, you can get pretty nice bass from cheap drivers.
As I said, I have two 18" MGR drivers atm,  I cannot say they are useless.. they will put out nice amount of SPL and goes pretty low if you want to (depending on box size / tuning).  But even single 18" RCF loaded bass reflex outperforms two MGR's easily - sound is much more brutal (faster). 
I'm not so sure about low end performance with cheap drivers in Gsub.. usually those cheap low BL high Qts drivers needs large enclosure. 
Once I tested my MGR's in 6th order dual 18 bandpass and it was just horrible. Output was practically zero, because back chambers were too small for low power (low BL) drivers.  Things were totally different when RCF lf18x400 was installed. That box is damn loud with RCF's! 

If you wanna go cheap way, just do it and dont ask later how to make more spl - you have been told :)






Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 10:58am
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:


Learn winisd. Its not hard. Then go build your boxes.

All you have to do is put in the ts parameters. Its a few minutes work then you can play with the volume and ports to see what works.


+1


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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room!!".


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 11:56am
"I took the 100dB figure from the plot on the datasheet. There are points on that plot where it reaches 101dB also but it's mostly 99-100.

Faital lists average, Rockville lists peak, assuming their numbers are reliable which I wouldn't."

+100

Unless the manufacturer actually gives you the plot, the SPL figure will most probably be a peak - and often at some frequency outside the band you´re actually going to use, ie a con.

It seems to me that the OP has already decided what he wants and any arguments to the contrary are a waste of time. No decent driver is going to be within 3 x the price of the Rockvilles, so he just dismisses any suggestion as too expensive. Waste of time.   Confused










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Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 12:16pm
It's the same as anything where precision engineering and build quality contributes to performance.

Tighter engineering and build quality with premium components creates a tighter sound. Obviously. Think of it like handwriting vs caligrahy. Handwriting can be pretty good quality and some people are able to knock out pages of beautiful handwriting pretty fast, but high grade caligraphy takes mastery of an art and costs a lot more to produce per word, because of the precision involved - it takes time and skill. So does producing a good loudspeaker.

Speakers are produced partly by hand and partly by machine, and at every stage in the production process there are opportunities to cut corners - to be less precise, to use the moulds for more cycles, to reject less parts, to use looser tolerances, to have lower skilled people assemble components with a less rigorous and skilled/less time consuming process, etc. If 30% of your component's retail cost is labour, then if you can cut down labour time and costs by 2/3 you can knock 20% off the price. Ditto machining costs, raw material sources etc. That's how you need to think to produce a $60 driver. It's not magic.

Areas to cut for example: Optimum strength to weight ratio of materials/precision manufacturing of the cone and dustcap, precision winding/multi-layer voice coils with precision square copper wire, lighter weight voicecoil former for lower Mms without sacrificing cone stiffness (more punch), uniformity of quality/composition and magnetisation across the ferrite in the magnet, quality of glues and application of glues/adhesion of parts, a holistically engineered approach as opposed to one of 'put together the cheapest selection of components possible that will combine to yield reasonable performance across the parameters deemed most desirable by the market'...etc etc.

Retail markup and distribution costs are a serious consideration and it's true you may be paying 50% or more to middlemen, but when it's 4x or even 8x the cost that's still twice or four times as much budget towards developent and manufacturing costs, and you have to ask yourself what is it that makes the end product so special that there is even room for those middlemen in the first place? It's not all marketing BS.

It's a matter of reputation for quality and relability built up in a fairly small market with only a few big players, where the basics are deceptively simple but mastery is a seriously time consuming and expensive task.

A synergy of the mastery of sufficient subdisciplines to produce the very best product and to sustain a viable business around that is extremely uncommon, and it forces competitors in the marketplace to take themselves extremely seriously and to push above and beyond the standard, driving the field forwards.

Theoretically you could produce a damn good woofer for about $120 with a direct to market business model and a bottom feeding approach (take what the field leaders already developed and refine it with budget prioritised above all else). Groups like Thomann and Behringer do this to a certain extent. Much less than that and you're cutting production standards to the bone.

It's worth looking at some of the published response plots on the Bishopsound website. They also use drivers like this and you can get a feel for how erratic the quality is versus a decent pro woofer.

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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 1:11pm
WinISD is useless when SPL is in question. It just takes the sensitivity figure you put in it as a guide.
Most of sensitivity figures for big drivers are taken from the upper range part, 90-200Hz and has nothing to do with the real usage bandwidth sensitivity.
If you want to know the real spl, you must use Hornresp or Akabak. 


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 1:16pm
I think t.box speaker's 18-500/8-a is hard to beat, when it comes to value for money.  

Cast frame, 4 inch voice coil, strong magnet, dual voice coil cooling holes, 23.8 force factor,  neat Qts/es figures (cannot find xmax tho..),  for 139eur that is pretty good I can say!



Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 1:17pm
Are you sure? 

I've never entered the sensitivity figure of a driver into WinISD.

It calculates sensitivity based on the TS parameters entered, and it doesn't apply it uniformly (each driver has is given a calculated average SPL and peak SPL rating). Assuming you're using it correctly LOL


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Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: APW
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

I think t.box speaker's 18-500/8-a is hard to beat, when it comes to value for money.  

Cast frame, 4 inch voice coil, strong magnet, dual voice coil cooling holes, 23.8 force factor,  neat Qts/es figures (cannot find xmax tho..),  for 139eur that is pretty good I can say!


From memory... the Thomann  driver is actually an Elderaudio 18LB100-8BA, I believe the xmax is 6.5mm.
I don't know where 6.5mm came from but I found it a long time ago and wrote it and the Elderaudio part number on the top of the data sheet!!


Posted By: midas
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 3:02pm
Not looked at this thread for a few days.

Looks like a load of nonsense. So many have tried to help you and it is still being ignored.

The Faital driver pointed out you said no thank you due to price as printed specs are similar. Go and buy one of each stick them in a box and tell us all which one is better.

Why don’t you just simply use the Fane design twin 18 with triangular cut outs to go with your shitsville driver.

The reason people are suggesting you spend more so you might have one pair of good subs rather than 4 pairs of crap. Then as money allows build some more. That is what I would do. Even if it meant only having a single double sub to start with.

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In bass no one can hear you scream!


Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by APW APW wrote:

Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

I think t.box speaker's 18-500/8-a is hard to beat, when it comes to value for money.  

Cast frame, 4 inch voice coil, strong magnet, dual voice coil cooling holes, 23.8 force factor,  neat Qts/es figures (cannot find xmax tho..),  for 139eur that is pretty good I can say!


From memory... the Thomann  driver is actually an Elderaudio 18LB100-8BA, I believe the xmax is 6.5mm.
I don't know where 6.5mm came from but I found it a long time ago and wrote it and the Elderaudio part number on the top of the data sheet!!

And somehow that 18-500/8 has many similarities to JBL 2241H.. almost indentical chassis etc. 

hmm, I think I need to get one of those.. just to see how it performs. Promising parameters there is, really. 






Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 3:20pm
From the Elderaudio website: 

Quote
Winding depth11mm
Magnetic gap depth
11mm

Unless there's some mistake in the specs, that actually indicates a very limited excursion capacity. 

Per classic xmax calculations (Winding depth - magnetic gap depth / 2) it actually has .. zero. Zero xmax. A manufacturer like BMS would literally rate this driver as having 0mm xmax.

Like I said earlier, cutting excursion capacity is one of the main ways to save money on woofer design and that's how Thomann have managed to deliver a driver like this for so little money.

If you were feeling generous you could add (gap depth / 3) and give it 3.67mm (the same calculation that gives the Faital 18FH510 9.25mm), and it might well have specific Xvar characteristics that allow it to remain passable up to 6mm or more (that could be the 6.5mm number you saw quoted). 

That's why I'm specifically dubious about the Rockvilles' lack of published xmax. It may also be (effectively) zero. If it wasn't embarassing they'd publish it. If it's anything less than 4.65mm in real world usage, then you'll get more air moving (more feeling the bass) with 1x Faital, B&C, RCF etc in the $200-300 price bracket.

6.5mm of technically acceptable excursion, though likely giving much higher distortion than would be accepted in more stringent applications, is actually not that bad, and for the price I can definitely see why people wouldn't be disappointed, but as with the Rockvilles it's worth thinking about what's available for twice the price and accounting for the savings of building less bins.

335 euros will get you a BMS 18s450 with 1200w RMS, 26.5 BL and 12mm xmax. 19mm per Faital calculations and God knows how much by Rockville/Elder Audio calculations. Then your only issue is finding the amp power.

Triple aluminium demodulation rings and double waterproofed cone, inside/outside voicecoil winding for low power compression. All the bells and whistles basically. That's value for money as far as I'm concerned. I know I'm basically reading off the BMS marketing materials here LOL but there you go.


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Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 3:46pm
The box manual says 18-500/8A voice coil height is 21.8mm.



Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

The box manual says 18-500/8A voice coil height is 21.8mm.

Is magnetic gap depth published?

Either it's an error on one or other of the spec sheets or they're not the same driver. 21.8 with an 11mm gap depth isn't 6.5 either.


Edit: Published gap depth 11mm so it's an error at Elder Audio! Works out like 8mm which is very respectable for the price.

I did think 0mm xmax was just a bit nuts, but theres a P Audio 18 in that price bracket with 2mm, so it could happen.


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Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

Originally posted by Tonskulus Tonskulus wrote:

The box manual says 18-500/8A voice coil height is 21.8mm.

Is magnetic gap depth published?

Either it's an error on one or other of the spec sheets or they're not the same driver. 21.8 with an 11mm gap depth isn't 6.5 either.

Yes, it says magnetic gap 11mm. 



Posted By: APW
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 4:20pm
I just found the same thing, I assume the VC height (22.8mm) is the winding depth.

From the Thomann spec sheet:
Height of voice coil.......................: 21.8 mm
Depth of magnet...........................: 11 mm

the problem with budget drivers is the data provided is often at best optimistic, quite often has misprints or has been lost in translation (as can be seen from the thomann/elderaudio example above) and sometimes downright lies!! 

I don't own the thomann driver but did consider it once and so have the data sheet, I prefer to put my money on drivers I can trust to at least come close to spec..



Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 4:44pm
Yes there's a lot of plausible deniability goes on with these specs. Another reason not to publish key specs is so that the manufacturer can change them whenever they like.

If you 'accidentally' put 11mm winding depth and a customer places a large order without questioning that, then you're free to make it whatever depth you think you can get away with

For what it's worth both Thomann and Rockvilke drivers probably perform at or close to the specs they publish, but it's notable that Thomann don't publish TS params at all.

The difference as far as quality goes comes from the data people in that budget range don't generally consider. Power compression and distortion, build quality issues which affect behaviour under heavy load, etc.

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Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 5:10pm
Well, that thomann driver is not that expensive.. so why not to try it out, at least for comparsion purpose. I just have to do it :D   

I'm using mostly RCF drivers in my systems atm, but also have really good experiences with some 18sound and Fane drivers too (not the cheapest models tho).




Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 5:23pm
It's definitely good value. Fits the op's requirement better than any other suggestion so far.

4 of them in TH-18 bins driven with 800w-900w each outdoors would be slamming! Equal SPL to about 16 or maybe even 24 Rockvilles in Reflex (for the same amp power)

Would need to limit them carefully not to blow them with that input level though. Still a bit of a gamble for reasons outlined at excrutiating length but at least it's a gamble that, if it paid off, would have some balls.

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Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by Hemisphere Hemisphere wrote:

It's definitely good value. Fits the op's requirement better than any other suggestion so far.

4 of them in TH-18 bins driven with 800w-900w each outdoors would be slamming! Equal SPL to about 16 or maybe even 24 Rockvilles in Reflex (for the same amp power)

Would need to limit them carefully not to blow them with that input level though. Still a bit of a gamble for reasons outlined at excrutiating length but at least it's a gamble that, if it paid off, would have some balls.

about which driver are you talking?


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 6:13pm
The Thomann 18"

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Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 6:18pm
I think that a 18-500 not suits the th18.
Qts is a bit to high, and I doubt the cone would hold the force of this design.

BR design tuned around 40 Hz would be best suitable for the 18-500 imo.


Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 27 November 2017 at 6:34pm
Stop talking about TH18, because I'm () this close to build those! :D   I have few RCF lf18x400's that should be good for TH18 (or similar) I think.. another option is Cubo sub, which is pretty simple to make.
Hard to make decisions.. 




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