2x10" vented horn idea
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Category: Plans
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URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=100997
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Topic: 2x10" vented horn idea
Posted By: Noud
Subject: 2x10" vented horn idea
Date Posted: 03 January 2018 at 7:09pm
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Good evening everyone, I’ve been working on a idea that has been popped op last week. I’m still working on it but i’m very curious if this could work. A few questions: -Vented horn does it work this high? -Where to place the vent? (front, back, horn throat) -Will the BMS 4590 be able to work till 600hz with the P-audio ph-642? -How can i measure the dispersion? I know it needs a bit of eq but so far for me it seems promising. Speaker: -BMS 4590 -P-audio ph-642 horn 60x40 -Faital pro fh520 16ohm (already used in a different cabinet)(edit 10-1-2018) Whats your opinion?! Plot 2.0PI Format 60x35x60cm
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Replies:
Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 03 January 2018 at 7:33pm
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First thing I see is al lot of wasted space. The whole compartment around the driver is not neccesary with this layout. Look at the design of Peter Morris 
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Posted By: turbo7
Date Posted: 03 January 2018 at 9:09pm
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i like the idea but it is hard to have a shining top end with large CD horns regarding dispersion, as the high frequencies will beam. The BMS driver can work down to 600Hz. The lowest i have been going was 500Hz, would not recommend it but it worked. It is also questionable if the 12" 56g cone can handle the pressure of 130dB @ 110Hz, how low would you want to go ? i have simulated the design and i got somewhere like you and there is no excursion limit before 95Hz  But still, i guess compression here is not higher as with a phase plug. i would try it ! Lets see how much bass it can do as well Edit: Stop wasting space  |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 04 January 2018 at 1:33pm
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The Peter Morris looks very nice! but little bit wide for how i like to use them. Thanks for the inspiration
I already build a horn for the faitals and it seems to be handeling it without any problem. But the cabinets are to big. A lot of wasted space  compresion ratio 2.42 will be okay? Where could i put the vent? front, back or horn throat here's a update were less space is wasted measurements 60x35x51 cm  |
Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 04 January 2018 at 1:57pm
| In what setup are you going to use them? |
Posted By: snowflake
Date Posted: 04 January 2018 at 1:57pm
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make it trapezoidal. remove the wall between the back chamber and the cavity with the HF driver in so that volume is used as additional rear volume. I'm not sure a ported horn is that easy to cross over to a sub because of phase response. also you may have problems physically fitting a port into this design. but if you have one put it on the back panel and make it as large as you can. flaring will help reduce chuffing. |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 04 January 2018 at 2:24pm
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I would like to make a frame so i can fly them and put them on an pole above a sub. (horizontal) Thanks for the feedback i'm going to try to adjust it.
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Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 04 January 2018 at 2:36pm
Assuming you want a 100Hz crossover (approximately), that corresponds to a wavelength of 3.44m, so to remain in half space, the whole of the horn mouth could be no higher than 86cm above ground. Otherwise, you're best to model mids in quarter space (4Pi). That will probably mean you don't have enough mouth area to support going as low as you want. |
Noud wrote:Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 04 January 2018 at 2:50pm
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you're right it needs to be 4Pi It will do the low end because of the vent i assume. It only gets a bit pointier. making the mouth area bigger doesn't work unfortunately. |
Posted By: FrederikMA
Date Posted: 04 January 2018 at 6:01pm
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Using very high BL low Q driver will allow you quite some sensitivity from a small horn mouth. Problem is the max spl which is usually limited by the excursions peak (impedance spikes) of such a horn. Personally, I have found it is better to do a shorter horn using a driver with good LF sensitivity in direct radiator mode. Best regards Fred |
Posted By: 4AC
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 9:43am
I like this one  https://postimg.org/image/5pmzwth2t/" rel="nofollow">  Or try a two-way synergy horn design, f.e. the http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/264485-syntripp-2-2-virtual-single-source-horn.html" rel="nofollow - SynTripP . But that is some advanced speaker designing ;-) https://postimg.org/image/px0fphh8l/" rel="nofollow">  https://postimg.org/image/i49rxiiz9/" rel="nofollow">  ------------- uǝɿɿɐʌǝ6ɯo sı ʇsʞǝʇ ǝzǝp |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 08 January 2018 at 1:54pm
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Nice designs! I looked at synergy horn but like you said very difficult! I worked out a design for 4Pi looks alot like the first plot. One thing changed the horn is now RCF hf94 and driver BMS 4593HE 1,4" Coax Space wise its not the best but i think it will work. (600x350x550) I only need to calculatie the chamber and then fit the vent maby under ande above the horn. When i'm satisfied with the design there will be a test. Ad some flyware and polemount extra handels When flying the speakers in some rooms the ceiling wont be that high so then the 2Pi will come close What do you guys think?   |
Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 08 January 2018 at 3:32pm
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Seems you could reduce the box size by increasing the angle of the baffles on the 10" drivers and opening up some of the wasted CD chamber space to make better use of it. I assume that slot opening isn't intended to allow air flow between the cavities and has something to do with the yet to be added vent? ------------- Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans Phase 2: ????? Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit! |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 08 January 2018 at 5:34pm
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That's true! what should be the maximum angele for a bend? I was affread it would be to mutch. yes i would like to make the vent in the front. Does someone have any experiance with the bms 4593he? |
Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 08 January 2018 at 5:49pm
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I'm not sure. The Peter Morris top has quite sharp angles. Check it out as reference. You would want to strike the optimum balance between the angle of the baffle/first bend and the size of the opening into the CD chamber (as narrow an opening as you can get away with while still functioning as a single acoustic cavity). How narrow that would be I'm not sure either, but what you have pictured definitely won't do. Where does the vent go at the front? ------------- Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans Phase 2: ????? Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit! |
Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 08 January 2018 at 7:09pm
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hf94 should not be crossed much below 1000hz, ph642 works ok 800hz up, hf950 even a tad lower (650 at a stretch, 700 comfortably), xt1464 700up too, afaik.. rcf nd950 or b&c de1050 for example should work ok 800hz up on a large horn too if you want to cut some costs on drivers.. with such horn/cab design/layout like yours you really want/need a low crossover as the mids struggle to reach 1khz comfortably + the higher you cross the narrower the dispersion of those mids will get, which causes a mismatch at the crossover region, specially if horizontally arrayed.. (lots of info and detail on peter morris`threads.. ;) whats your specific needs/requirements btw? - what sort of gigs do you do, what size of crowd, PA, venue etc.? |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 08 January 2018 at 8:53pm
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which horn would you recommend for the 4590 or the 4593he? In the ideal world a crossover of 600hz/650hz would be the best suitable. its hard to stretch the 10's till 700hz or 800hz I want to use then for venue form 50 till about 400/500 people. I've got a drive inn show so the aplication is various. Sometimes they will be on a pole and the next week flying |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 08 January 2018 at 9:05pm
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May the Limmer 033 wit the B&C DE750? P audio Ph64? P audio PH-942 A lot of question 
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Posted By: FrederikMA
Date Posted: 08 January 2018 at 9:17pm
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Question is how much you care about directivity. A horn which loads to 600hz while providing good directional properties will be large and further compromise the horn mouth of the 10's. It's very appealing to horn load the drivers as low as practically possible but there is a reason it's so rarely seen in pro boxes. It's very hard to get good (or even just acceptable) hf respons from long horns - an they do get acoustically very long at the high frequencies most CDs requires the lowmid channel to produce. Even Peter Morris wouldn't operate his 12" horn higher than 800hz and that's very close to an ideal horn with smooth curves and all. I find it more sensible to do a shorter horn and pay attention to "tricks" to improve LF efficiency. Best regards Fred |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 09 January 2018 at 7:03am
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I searched on the limmer site and found the 042 horn 6" and a 1" combination horn I've got a BMS 4538 for the tweeter. the horn can be bought at Lautsprecherteile.de And the phl 1040 toutlehautparleur.com Anyone got experians with this combi? how does it sound? could this work with some ajustment in the plan https://www.limmerhorns.de/042/" rel="nofollow - https://www.limmerhorns.de/042/ |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 09 January 2018 at 5:51pm
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Posted By: FrederikMA
Date Posted: 09 January 2018 at 7:35pm
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I'm having a hard time telling whether it's perspective or if the horn area expansion actually is negative for the last section? Regardless, the mouth is certainly too small to function as a "real horn". In my opinion you are entering the niche of tre way tops like H3 and F1 res series by using such a midhorn. You need a powerfull lowmid to justify adding another channel for mid. Sorry if I'm coming out as being negative. I think the rate at which you reconsider the layout is great. I'm just trying to help you steer clear of solutions that might work on paper but ultimately will disapoint in performance after all your efforts. I think you need to narrow down which "sound" you are going for. A two-way hybrid horn design can be great and so can a three-way. But they are both a delicate balancing of rear volume, horn mouth size, expansion rate, compression ratio, efficiency balancing... the list goes on. Best regards Fred |
Posted By: FrederikMA
Date Posted: 09 January 2018 at 7:43pm
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The thread on Peter Morris is not just a great design of similar layout. It is first and formost a great example of a good design proces. Really inspiring journey for any adventurous speaker designer. Best regards Fred |
Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 09 January 2018 at 9:37pm
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those 6/1 limmer horns are not capable of very high spl/wont require a double 10" hornloaded cab to cover lowmids.. |
Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 09 January 2018 at 9:55pm
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I still don't really understand the motivation for this design. Is there a particular reason you need it in certain dimensions that necessitate this layout or is it just for the novelty of the design process? How much SPL do you need, what exactly are the constraints? ------------- Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans Phase 2: ????? Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit! |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 9:10am
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Thanks for all the replies! I understand it's not perfect that's why i'm still working on it and try to get as much info as i can get before building a prototype. I only made sketch's to see if its possible. Because i'm a mobile dj i wan't to make a cabinet that's not to big (good to handle) en is loud so i can use it for all kind of venues. It's a bit like Peter Morris make a small cabinet that can play with the big boys. I saw on the forum of Peter that he also uses the 4593he from about 600/650hz. (rcf hf950 horn) so i start changing the cabinet so the horn mount is a bit bigger 2x 40x20cm this allows me to strech the xover point to 650/700hz. box size 70x40x55cm WxHxD  |
Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 9:45am
| But whats the benefit of this form factor? Your cab is very big, but the horn mouth is too small. It also appears to be a complicated build with lots of angled cuts etc... Why not copy the peter Morris layout? I |
Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 10:23am
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70x40x55 is a big box. What I'm wondering is do you really need the benefit of two drivers? You can get really quite loud with a 1x12 horn loaded midtop and could buy a superlative 12" driver capable of taking a tonne of juice for the price of two decent 10's. The cabinet would be deeper but overall dimensions would be the same or less. The build would be miles simpler, the cabinet would be lighter, and you might only lose about 4dB total SPL. Depending on how much smaller and lighter you could make it, and your total cost of components, you might consider building twice as many of the simpler box, so as to have extra for the times when you really needed them. Or more practically, wait until your lack of SPL becomes a real issue before building more. The other advantage of the two box solution is that you could increase your flexibility for wide HF dispersion or multi-room/wide area coverage when necessary, and the horn coupling on the low mids when using two boxes, along with the extra SPL capacity of the 12's would give you an edge of about +4dB on your 2x10.
------------- Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans Phase 2: ????? Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit! |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 10:24am
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I already got the Faitals but in a bigger box https://forum.speakerplans.com/double-10inch-horn-top_topic95111.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/double-10inch-horn-top_topic95111.html This cabinet works pretty good but it's and just to big/hard to handle for the small venues. (a lot wasted space) So this design is a lot smaller already. Still trying to get is smaller do. how big do you think the horn mount needs to be? If i need to believe hornresp it's big enough 1600cm2 Yes it's not the easiest speaker to build but does it need to be easy if it works and it matches your demands? The Peter Morris cabinet is to wide for my opinion, i rather have i deeper box. If the horn mount needs to bee bigger then there is no other option. but if i looked correctly his horn mount is 2000cm2.
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Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 10:44am
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Didn't spot you were trying to make use of drivers you already have. Are you going to build two boxes or one? If one then why not a stereo pair of simple 1x10s? ------------- Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans Phase 2: ????? Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit! |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 12:10pm
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Sorry ind't mentioned it
I've got 4 faitals and was planning to build 2 cabinets. and maybe use only one for venues till 60 people. (small room)
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Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 1:29pm
That doesn't make sense - what you're proposing is a lot wider than the Peter Morris designs?
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Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 1:47pm
| Peter Morris design is 93cm wide/high i want to try to make them max 70cm |
Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 2:00pm
Every drawing you've posted has the mids at the sides of the highs, making them a lot wider than the 35-ish cm of the PM...
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Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 3:01pm
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Peter morriss 930-H x430-D x 385-W Noud 730-H x550-D x 430-W trapezium 280-W Volumes are almost the same my design is a bit deeper but less high
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Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 7:02pm
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why not simply just build 210 reflex cabs with good 1.4"s and suitable horns? small, light, easy to build etc. etc. and should be loud enough for 200pax 100hz up.. btw. what sort of subs/setups do you use for your gigs? |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 8:09pm
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I like a challenge of course it's easier to build, cheaper, lighter and smaller. but... i rather have 2 horn loaded cabinet i can use till many 400 people. I've got 4x mogale super scoopers 18 and 1x 18" reflex cabine both fane 18xb loaded For small gigs i use them in combinatie with my HK pro 12. bigger gigs 2 or 4 scoops with the horn tops. The reason i start thinking about a different cabinet was. i was playing at a wedding there where about 150 people and the hk's we used where just not load enough. i could use them for a venue max 120. but using 2 scoops with the horn loaded tops looks to big for a wedding that's why i want something i can fly is not to big en more then load enough. And i like to try to make something new
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Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 8:55pm
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hmm, 210s with those faitals and suitable 1.4"s+horns will be louder, yet more balanced, than your hk tops.. you have 4x 18" reflex subs with 18xbs+4x scoops? if so you could possibly use the reflex subs on their own with 210 reflex tops on sticks for most stereo setups+mono sub scoops 2-4 if required? |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 10 January 2018 at 9:13pm
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I’ve got 1 reflex 18xb and 4 scoops 18xb But de 210s will only play to a venue of max 200? Why not build a hornloaded cabinet that usefull till maybe 400? I know they will be bigger and harder to build but i think useable for almost every gig. ( my gigs )
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Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 11 January 2018 at 9:17am
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tbh, that is a lot of wasted space, and too many angles. It's going to take ages to build. The Peter Morris layout is pretty much perfect, simple and efficient. All the wasted space, complicated angles and redundant walls disappear, just by putting the baffle and horn throats to the back. 
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Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 11 January 2018 at 9:37am
Yes that's true i still need to work on a better layout. Peter did a perfect job! really good. If I've got some extra time i'm going to work with it. One question about the Peter Morris speaker, is it a offset horn? |
Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 11 January 2018 at 10:06am
| Slot loaded front loaded horn, with br port to achieve more low end |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 11 January 2018 at 10:50am
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Okay maybe a stupid question but in hornresp there's no difference ? Just simulate a front loaded horn? It looks a lot like offset I'm going to try getting the same cant of layout
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Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 11 January 2018 at 11:25am
| Im no expert by any means, but afaik offset horn would be a driver mounted directly into the side wall without front chamber, meaning that different parts of the transducer have differing offsets from the horns start. The peter Morris, and your plan both have a front chamber with slot loading into a folded horn |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 11 January 2018 at 12:45pm
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A lot less Corners This need a little tune up (low mid horn) also the chamber is to big but that can be fixed. Next time i will fit the horn and driver. Not the final drawing yet. Could this work? what do you guys think?  |
Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 11 January 2018 at 4:55pm
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noud: -crossing scoops above 100hz straight to a top will likey sound weird due to phase issues of scoops above about 90hz.. ideally you would need a dedicated kick cab to fill the gap -the 10" horns wont be useable much above 7-800hz, without proper phaseplug to reduce front chamber likely not even above 500hz.. so be prepared to buy suitable/expensive 1.4" HF and large horn to make them work+take care of the horn expansion, throat compression/front chamber -your attempt/idea being much smaller than the PM cab will also lead to less horn loading below 250hz, leaving a wider gap between horn cutoff and optional reflex tuning, overall output 100-250 will be way less than using 12" drivers and larger horn -the 10fh520 is not exactly a mid horn driver either hence the response wont be great/balanced but rather peaky (as already sort of visible in your sims) |
Posted By: gen0me
Date Posted: 11 January 2018 at 5:48pm
For your case low frequencies = entire bandwidth. If you place top horizontally it would have reverse dispersion. Thats why P Morrisons top is higher than wider. For your bandwidth you could bend this horn as you like. Ill be carefull with the simulation here. |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 11 January 2018 at 6:55pm
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I Premairly want to use the speaker horizontal so the dispersion should be fine is i understand it correctly. the sub could became a new project. but first try to make the best of the faitals. I would like to buy the bms 4593he for this cabinet with the rcg hf950. so í'm aware it will be expensive. hornresp now shows me it will work till about 600hz so the horn should work? I'm now professionel but i want to try making this work. I'm aware it's not easy en there needs to be compromises Looks like i'm missing the point why this design will not work |
Posted By: bass*en*mass
Date Posted: 11 January 2018 at 8:55pm
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using such a single cab on its side/horizontally doesnt make much sense imo as its dispersion will only be about H50/60° but V80/90°ish at the xover - hence it makes much more sense imo to use such cabs (like peters) vertically, straight, or on short poles, ontop of say 2x 15" reflex or similar to make up for the lowmid issue/ensure close coupling, specially with your 210" version with even less lowmid capacity.. + a large 90x50°ish horn, that matches the dispersion more or less at the xover, loaded with a large hf that could be crossed at 700ish without loosing too much uhf - bms coaxs seem a good compromise achieving that bandwidth compared to other "regular" 4" coil drivers.. indeed.. but would be overkill imo as they could cover more mid spl than your 2 10fh520s are able to deliver unless you intend to cross really low on large custom hf horns.. btw a 4590 on ph942/642 for example is not really the weak part covering 4x12"s in a tannoy vq60 sort of cab 800hz up.. (tony wilkes v4m) - to gain higher output at a lower xover at defined Q/dispersion you`d need larger horns though.. a quad 10" reflex with those faitals on a V baffle with a southwest cnc 60x40 horn and a 4590 crossed at about 600hz would easily cover 4 scoops and 2-4 kicks as a single top cab 120hz up though..:) if you really need small/simple stereo tops that could be crossed quite low, due to your lack of kicks, i would still tend towards simple 210 reflex cabs with cheap`ish 1.4"s rather than complicated hornloaded cabs though.. |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 16 May 2019 at 3:38pm
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It's been a while but i gadert some more informatie and inspiration Like the most of you said, it's better to build a good br box than the horn loaded version. So after searching for i while i found the Seeburg K20 as a reference. De faital pro i have are perfect for the job! that only leaves me tho make a choise for a hf driver and horn. Looking and the K20 i looks like a XR1496 horn. The driver is not visible but if i'm correct is the rcf ND950 good fot the horn and the X-over of 900hz.(active) That are a couple of questions left: -How big can the venue be with total 2 boxes? (with proper bass speakers) -will the br work this way? Is there better way to place the br port?    |
Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 16 May 2019 at 4:03pm
| looks like attaching the driver to the horn and installing it in that box is impossible? |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 16 May 2019 at 4:05pm
| There will be a removable back panel |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 16 May 2019 at 4:16pm
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I thinkt he problem is that the horn must be bolted to the driver via the horn flange to the driver frontside, so you can't do that easily perhaps while the horn is inserted through the front of the box. Although with a bit of reaching it may be possible. Screw in adaptor might be easier but harder to find in higher diameters perhaps. |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 16 May 2019 at 4:17pm
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... |
Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 5:19am
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good layout. Add some front chambers, for 10”, tune to around 600hz and eq the peak
seal the rear chamber around the HF flare ports in white, tune to preference |
Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 5:21am
 Sorry for poor quality
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Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 5:20pm
| Nice layout Noud!! |
Posted By: Chris Grimshaw
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 6:11pm
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I use the 8ohm version of these drivers. Two per box, one box per side. Compression driver is an 18Sound ND1460 on an RCF HF94, crossover around 800Hz. I did this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXuV-Cl0hmI" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXuV-Cl0hmI With one top and 2x 15" subs per side. 85dBC-slow (103dB peaks) at 280 feet from the stacks. This was a reflex box of my own design. Nothing weird or unusual about it - just good drivers and lots of power. Chris ------------- Quality sound from Sheffield www.grimshawaudio.com |
Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 21 May 2019 at 2:26am
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^^Nice Chris. Noud, in reading your post in more detail it appears the ND950 is 2" exit while the XR1496 is 1.4" entry. You'll need the XR2064, which is very similar dims anyway. Putting the chambers in front of the mids allows you to maintain uniform dispersion until the XR2064 starts working at about 1.4khz. If the box is 300 wide the mouth of the chamber should be 5cm high if your going to cross at 900hz. You'll also need to tune the chambers higher (decrease their volume) for 900hz cross. Sorry, for some reason I assumed you were crossing lower when I suggested tuning them to 600hz. All the chambers do is keep the radiating area of the mids inside the wavelength of the crossover freq. If the drivers are too far apart (as in your current layout) the mids will behave erratically through the crossover frequencies which isn't ideal. |
Posted By: smitske96
Date Posted: 21 May 2019 at 7:25am
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@Keen Noud uses the 1.4" exit version of the ND950
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Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 21 May 2019 at 3:23pm
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Nice Chris! Till how big of a venue do you use them? |
Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 22 May 2019 at 12:17am
| great! the horns are the same dims anyway so it makes no difference to the box layout. my quick google obviously ended up at the 2 inch version, sorry for the confusion |
Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 22 May 2019 at 7:32am
| Noud, also noticed you’re actually going to use the cab on its side! In this case it’s very very important the mid drive units radiate inside one wavelength up to an octave past crossover freq. Otherwise you’re going to be giving 90% of the dfloor nothing below 1khz. |
Posted By: Chris Grimshaw
Date Posted: 22 May 2019 at 9:06am
Depends on how loud the customer wants it. There was an event on at the stadium that was in the video. Mostly spoken word, some music. Something like 800 school kids (plus teachers) in attendance, so it didn't need to be particularly loud. The system was putting out 123dBC-slow at 1m. The peaks are 18dB up on that track, so it's 141dB peaks. A couple of years back it was used as the main PA for a family festival.
Sound was clear and reasonably loud (you could hear the music over
people talking) at 100m back, with a couple of thousand people in
attendance. However, it wasn't anywhere close to concert/rave levels at
the back, or even in the middle of the audience. The organisers were happy, though - everyone knew music was happening, and which way to go if they wanted to listen to it louder. So there isn't really a simple number I can put to this system. For a rave, a few hundred people is usually just fine. I've got 8x Faital Pro 15HP1060 in ported boxes and the subs usually hit the limiters first. People love bass... Chris
------------- Quality sound from Sheffield www.grimshawaudio.com |
Posted By: Keen
Date Posted: 23 May 2019 at 6:32am
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How are the 15HP1060 Chris? They’re one of the only decent drivers for sale (off the shelf) here in Aus? Are they quite solid for what they are? Cheers
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Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 23 May 2019 at 9:55pm
| The Faitail HP series are excellent drivers |
Posted By: Chris Grimshaw
Date Posted: 24 May 2019 at 12:53pm
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Yep, the 15HP1060 drivers are really good. I've had a Crown MA12000i running all the way up to clipping driving a couple. Impressive output from some fairly small boxes, and they took the ~2200w power levels just fine. I feel like I could've pushed them further, but then I'd need an even bigger amplifier. These days, I use a Powersoft T602, and last weekend had the amp bridged into a pair of the 15"s. The venue (barn with farm house nearby) told me I could go as loud as I wanted, as they've never had any problems before. 10 minutes later, they came and asked me to turn it down because the farm house windows were all rattling. Good fun. Since the T602 is a little under-powered for running eight of these drivers, I'm thinking about dropping the tuning lower so the drivers still use all of their mechanical potential. A compact 30Hz box of some kind would be a lot of fun. Chris ------------- Quality sound from Sheffield www.grimshawaudio.com |
Posted By: toastyghost
Date Posted: 24 May 2019 at 1:17pm
| I will keep saying this until I’m blue in the face but there is zero chance you were giving them 2200 watts for any length of time if they still work. A larger amp would get you a totally negligible increase in output long term, but would give you the chance of melting the coils much more easily. |
Posted By: MattStolton
Date Posted: 24 May 2019 at 2:29pm
I reckon that makes you Papa Smurf?  Although that looks a bit more Tony A.S.S., any relation? I'll get my coat - Azrael, we're off. ------------- Matt Stolton - Technical Director (!!!) - http://www.wildingsound.co.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilding Sound Ltd "Sparkius metiretur vestra" - "Meter Your Mains" |
Posted By: Father-Francis
Date Posted: 24 May 2019 at 8:17pm
😂😂😎nailed it . ------------- Music is the strongest form of magic.(+45 31879997)blakmanpro@gmail.com, foa@sweetboxaudio.dk |
Posted By: Chris Grimshaw
Date Posted: 26 May 2019 at 10:06am
First, define "long term output". If you're talking about playing continuous sine waves, then yes, I agree with you. Power compression would eat that extra 3dB (over the 1KW long-term rating) quite quickly. However, almost all of the program material I play does NOT contain continuous low-frequency sine waves. If DJs are playing, it's usually for weddings, so it'll be mostly chart or cheese, where the bass has transients. The system also gets used for a lot of live music, where there's even greater dynamic range. I have had that Crown amp up to clipping with a couple of drivers per side, and when the clip light is on (ie, kick drum hits), the drivers are receiving full power. For the same amount of cone area and cabinets, the bigger amplifiers give me 3dB more "feel" to the kick drum, and haven't had any thermal issues, because of the program material that these cabinets get used for. Chris
------------- Quality sound from Sheffield www.grimshawaudio.com |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 21 August 2019 at 1:21pm
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It's been a while but i start building 4 K20 cabinets. After testing with a simple test cabinet i'm really happy with the sound quality and pressure! Sooo... Today i'm going to pick up that last piece of wood. (build pics asap)
Ordered all the drivers and horns. so totally it will be: 4x XR1464c 4x ND950 1.4 8ohm 8x 10fh520 16ohm The next thing on the list will be look for a good second hand amp powering the 4 k20's I looked at a crown I-tech 6000 (read good en bad thing about reliably)??? or a Lab gruppen FQ6400 but it has slightly les power. Price max €1500 incl. tax Amps today: 1x powersoft d1604 1x zeck pt7 (I would like to replace it with the crown or lab gruppen or....) 1x Labgruppen Lab 4000 Also i was told it wise to protect de hf driver with a capacitor ? cut off about 650hz |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 27 August 2019 at 12:29pm
Some Build pics so far     |
Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 27 August 2019 at 6:02pm
Wow, top work, you are a master router!!  Inspirational stuff!
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Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 28 August 2019 at 3:01pm
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Thanks Bob! One step at a time to get the best result Still looking for the right amp and the hf driver protection hf filter. -Amp should have 1.5 á 2 times the power of the speaker (1800-2400watt 8ohm 3600-4800watt 4ohm) -The FP14000 look perfect for the job! but do i need to be careful pushing it till 0db or peak? (it's so much power for the small speakers) -For the hf filter 500hz would it be better to make it 2ndt, 3rd or 4rd or just 1st order? it will be active filtert at 650hz but just for safety a extra passive one. |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 12 September 2019 at 11:59am
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Small update. I've order all small part: nut's. bolts. foam, and, and..... all part are milled so i can start assembly next week wen all parts are there. I made a dissension on amps ore the fp14000 or a ma12000I. Wat do you guys think is better? for my application? I like the ma12000i because of the power and the functionalities. (cheaper) And the Lab gruppen should be good power wish but less to play with I haven't got any experience with neither of the amps.  I also ordered a capacitor of 33 uf for protecting the hf driver. (got some small one to add when necessary)
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Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 16 February 2020 at 11:45am
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So the build finally ready! The next project will be some compact (max. 350L) subs instead of my 18xb super scoopers. Options: Alt-config 15 (can be found on facebook High Order Quarterwave Society (DIY Paraflex & Super Planar dev community)) Cubo sub 
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Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 16 February 2020 at 5:41pm
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Congratulations, they look amazing!!!!
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Posted By: Elliot Thompson
Date Posted: 16 February 2020 at 6:30pm
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Excellent carpentry skills. Best Regards, ------------- Elliot Thompson |
Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 16 February 2020 at 7:25pm
| Yes they do! They look amazing. I might be after something similar. Where is the plan from? |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 17 February 2020 at 7:50am
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Thank you guys! very happy with the result! They are copies of the Seeburg K20. on there site you can find the 3d file, and you only need to fill in the baffle and bracing. http://https://www.seeburg.net/en/speakers/k-20/146" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.seeburg.net/en/speakers/k-20/146 |
Posted By: Bams
Date Posted: 17 February 2020 at 8:44am
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Erhm... might be a sticky question.. but is Seeburg okay with people copying their commercial available designs? Nonetheless... really clean build!
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Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 17 February 2020 at 7:43pm
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How did you do the grill? Final product looks really well done. How does it compare to a d&b q7? Does it need lots of processing ?
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Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 18 February 2020 at 1:26pm
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Thanks! I work at a stainless steel factory where they have a cnc lasercutting machine Never heard or used the Q7. It doesn't need a lot processing but this is based in my garage. Coming weekend i will do some more tests with 4 in a large barn. |
Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 22 February 2020 at 9:53am
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Been looking at the design, really doesn't have much volume behind the drivers and wondering how much this effects its output. What frequency will you cross it to subs? |
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 22 February 2020 at 12:52pm
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Very good work. I ma working on similar 2x12 box. However, this box does not really classify as a vented horn. Its a reflex box. :) ------------- Marjan Milosevic MM-Acoustics www.mm-acoustics.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713 |
Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 22 February 2020 at 1:11pm
Ive been looking at drivers for a 2x12 version this morning!
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Posted By: BP1Fanatic
Date Posted: 10 March 2020 at 6:50pm
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These speakers came out nice as h3ll! |
Posted By: DJGeno
Date Posted: 30 April 2020 at 2:45pm
| Can anyone comment on how the horn flare interacts with the port? Surely it will have a negative effect on it with it being so close, and with the horn throat passing through it? Will this reduce the performance of the port? I'm a complete newbie and trying to understand the physics of it all. |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 02 July 2020 at 8:43pm
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Goodevening Guys, I Started building some new subwoofers to replace my scoops. so I looked at a lot of different kind of subs like: -th18 xoc1 -cyclops -tham18 -tham 15 -Cubo sub -21 br and finally a paraflex Altcon 15 I wanted to be smaller go just as low or lower en just as loud. (if possible )so I started reading and reading and a bit more of reading. until I finally decided to go with the Paraflex Alton 15. the Hornresp sim so a similar output and range as the scoop. so I de build begon and there are some result in the pictures. Keep in mind the scoop is about 590Liters and the Alton 15 only 312Liters         Green=scoop 18XB Purple=Altcon 15ds115 HPF=34hz LPF=100hz
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Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 02 July 2020 at 8:43pm
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Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 02 July 2020 at 10:32pm
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Interesting! How about ground plane measurements? Measure at least 4meters away. |
Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 03 July 2020 at 5:16am
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I did it at 2m low volume and it’s about the same. ( don’t have a lot of space to test) When there is a bigger space available I will measure it from some different distances
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Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 04 July 2020 at 12:00am
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Measurements aside, how does it sound to you subjectively?
Interested in feed back on the paraflex vs horns, tapped horns and reflex.
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Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 04 July 2020 at 9:44am
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It sounds tide, clean, kick nice, makes the scoops sound "slow". I havent got the change to compare them with anything als but scoops. maybe in the future I will get the change. a friend of my got 18xb reflex. For a good testing day I first need to find a space to test. |
Posted By: Tonskulus
Date Posted: 28 August 2020 at 10:47am
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Poor ancient scoops.. tapped horns and paraflex systems are todays stuff. |
Posted By: NeuroWinter
Date Posted: 24 January 2021 at 2:28am
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Looks amazing, awesome pictures and great build! Is there a cnc cut sheet around anywhere? |
Posted By: Fsurfer
Date Posted: 24 January 2021 at 8:11am
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Amazing thread I would love to redesign the pair of side firing floorstanders I use at home, but space is a premium and the neighbours are too close |
Posted By: LjudLahger
Date Posted: 30 January 2021 at 2:09pm
A 15” with a bl of 38,7...I can understand that thing will sound like a beast
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Posted By: Noud
Date Posted: 31 January 2021 at 9:25am
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Sorry no cut sheet available. Yeah they sound amazing! the output at 40hz make them sound like a big box and still have a great punch when the kick hits! I'm still planning a test day to test them in different room. also to test the full set 4x k20 and 4x altcon 15 at high spl Earlier this week I download a demo of Smaart DI2 and learning as much af I can before test day. Maybe when the current situation is getting better I want to take a course en buy the software.
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