Print Page | Close Window

Quality

Printed From: Speakerplans.com
Category: General
Forum Name: General Forum
Forum Description: Open Discussion / Questions
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=101010
Printed Date: 19 April 2024 at 8:10pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Quality
Posted By: nickyburnell
Subject: Quality
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 8:45am
Decided it's best not to comment on anything I've heard in clubs or parties from now on.

When we had vinyl or CD there was an expected start point. Now these poxy digital, "DJ's" are using USB the quality is so variable it's not fair to judge the system.
At a club twice recently and only two out of 8 so called Dj's had a clue about recording their USB stuff. I was blaming the (Logic) system but then DJ changed and wow.
Horrible, stop it, go away *ankers

Yet another move forward in tech that compromises sound. Cheap SMPS, Chinese cabs, Plastic cabs, cheap powered cabs, YouTube recording, horrid sounding low end Pioneer mixers and USB DJ's.

In the mobile type market there is a trend for retro at mo. These guys with their Citronic 110w consoles and period Fane cabs sound tons better than nearly every wedding/band I've been to in the last 10 years.

Rant over


-------------
It's everything, not everythink!



Replies:
Posted By: midas
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 9:18am
Just wait until they start using those streaming contraptions...

-------------
In bass no one can hear you scream!


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 10:56am
Or Bluetooth monitors, l a t e n c y
.


-------------
It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: njw
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 11:30am
It seems I'm not the only one who thinks that systems at the lower end of things were far better years ago. For instance, the main venue in town has a load of Wharfedale plastic cabs always being driven into heavy limiting by a DJ playing questionable mp3's off a laptop. Years ago in that venue we had a pile of Fane and Celestion loaded cabs driven by a stack of Matrix STR's with nothing but good quality cd's played through it all. I haven't set foot in there for a couple years now unsurprisingly. 

 And at a gig I did on black Friday I noticed with one DJ (who was playing off two usb sticks) that on every other track the bass would disappear, I went up to have a look at the mixer thinking that he'd turned the bass down on one channel but no, everything was fine, it must have been crap quality on one of the usb sticks. I questioned him about and he said it sounded ok on his headphones....


Posted By: kevin tyler
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 12:48pm
Slightly off topic, but the amount of solo vocalists I see who download backing tracks from YouTube is disturbing.

I ask them, “do you not miss the bass drum and bass guitar on that track” and they look at me like I’m a knob



Posted By: cutdown69
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 1:21pm
The reason I built my little sound system was due to being fed up with hearing some of my favourite sounds being played and overdriven on poor sounding PA's
I think I got carried away tho, as my scoop heavy sound system is too big to play in normal sized venues..d'oh
 
Did I read somewhere that young people are now used to hearing heavily compressed music, their brains interpret the rest and so they don't need to listen to high fidelity reproductions, with good quality frequencies across the spectrum, as their brain makes up for it? Maybe that is a regression similar to only having black and white pictures in the past...with the brain colouring it in (err don't think that actually happens)


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:



Yet another move forward in tech that compromises sound. Cheap SMPS, Chinese cabs, Plastic cabs, cheap powered cabs, YouTube recording, horrid sounding low end Pioneer mixers and USB DJ's.

In the mobile type market there is a trend for retro at mo. These guys with their Citronic 110w consoles and period Fane cabs sound tons better than nearly every wedding/band I've been to in the last 10 years.

Rant over


Couldn't agree more Nicky.  A decent 70's or 80's disco console, some vinyl and a good pair of efficient period speakers will wipe the floor with most laptop djs with their plastic speakers on sticks. So much for progress, a forty year old system sounds better than a new one!

Citronic Avon console,2x110w,and pair of EV Eliminator W-bins  Clap........Versus some plank with a laptop and his 1000w chinese plastic cabs Dead

Give me the retro system all day long.


-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: markie
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 2:26pm
The last gig I did was about 10 years ago. My buddy and I used to do a duo thing with 2 guitars, vocals and a drum machine. It was around 200 of the local licenced victuallers in the Hannafore Point Hotel (West Looe).

After we'd finished I put mini discs on with disco/dance music and the party rocked on for several hours. Everybody said what a great sound we had from both our live sets and the disco afterwards, including one "Sound Engineer" who was very curious to know where the subs were, and were they linked wirelessly, because all he could see was 2 speakers on sticks and the powered mixer I was using.

The entire system was an AKAI AMX10 which was a 200 a side mixer amp, and 2 x VOLT 8" dual concentrics.

Granted the crowd was older so didn't want the "Make your ears bleed" volume of most gigs, but it's amazing what quality drivers and half decent amplification can do. And the whole system  (Including guitars)  fits in the back of a small estate car.


-------------
If it's got wheels or tits it's gonna cost a fortune


Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 2:27pm
People were also probably out and gigging with WEM columns as well though, just to play devil's advocate Big smile The best stuff always gets remembered before the worst. Survivor's bias. Not that I am defending anyone who plays youtube rips. Should be punishable by being pelted with old beer and bar snacks.


Posted By: KingGwarn
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 3:36pm
Only bring turntables and DJs can only play records Big smile

Pretty sure YouTube cuts audio at about 15khz to save bandwidth so youtube rips miss a lot of frequencies anyway!

S'why I don't like streaming services taking over...people get too used to having music on instant demand, and at a low quality...I'd rather cue up and run a piece of wax any day. You don't know what good sound sounds like though until you hear and notice it...most punters don't seem to know the difference, at least not under the influence...

Hey at least it makes proper sounds with pre amps and record boxes sound amazing in comparison!


-------------
Soundman inna Brighton town
https://www.facebook.com/KingGwarnSoundSystem/" rel="nofollow - King Gwarn Sound System


Posted By: studio45
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 3:36pm
My covers band play a lot of WMC's...some of which don't really merit the M.....and we are AFFLICTED by terrible DJ's. 64kbps files played through Maplin's finest million-watt £99.99 system, or , *even better than that*, burned onto cheap CDR's and then played back on malfunctioning Citronic dual decks - so they sound terrible, AND skip. WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

At the NYE gig the disco had SX300's and a laptop with WAV's, and we all agreed it was the best setup we'd seen all year.


-------------
Studio45 - Repairs & Building Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 05 January 2018 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by odc04r odc04r wrote:

People were also probably out and gigging with WEM columns as well though, just to play devil's advocate Big smile


As mid tops with Marshall W bins on bottom (Baker loaded) with proper piezos on top and a graphic doing opposite smileys as crossover, they were wonderful!  Honest guv.


-------------
It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 11:05am
Technology moving forward has its benefits too.

What would you rather listen too... a well recorded vinyl or WAV on.

A - mid 80’s Bose 802
B - mid 90’s citronic 15&1
C - mid 2010’s Yamaha DSR

-------------
www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 11:17am
This has gone off track.

My post was to highlight the way that USB DJ's    CAN    negate all the advances in tech at source.

So, would I rather listen to a CD/record on an 802 or a dick head Mp3 USB on a Yamaha DSR. Give me the 802 scenario any day.
 There is now no control of source, and it seems this is the future.

 My fantasy club would have Technics, a Formulas Sound mixer and CD1000 MK2 (mk2 being incapable of mp3). I would also employ a 7th dan doorman with good ears.

 Happy New Year


-------------
It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: KingGwarn
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

This has gone off track.

 My fantasy club would have Technics, a Formulas Sound mixer and CD1000 MK2 (mk2 being incapable of mp3). I would also employ a 7th dan doorman with good ears.

 Happy New Year

And a mixer that sends a small electric shock to the DJ whenever he/she redlines


-------------
Soundman inna Brighton town
https://www.facebook.com/KingGwarnSoundSystem/" rel="nofollow - King Gwarn Sound System


Posted By: bob4
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by KingGwarn KingGwarn wrote:

And a mixer that sends a small electric shock to the DJ whenever he/she redlines


I smell a market niche...... Educational audio products......


Posted By: Jo bg
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 3:55pm
Same song, vinyl will sound better than 320 mp3 on sound IF you can provide proppa isolation... Sadly many times turntable feedback makes mp3 sound better at war volumes.
When comparing them also the coloring given by the cartridge comes into play, some cartridges give more bass that will make them sound better than flat mp3.
We rip our vinyls on 48/24 aiff but sadly not all digital releases are available in lossless format.


Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

This has gone off track.

My post was to highlight the way that USB DJ's    CAN    negate all the advances in tech at source.

So, would I rather listen to a CD/record on an 802 or a dick head Mp3 USB on a Yamaha DSR. Give me the 802 scenario any day.
 There is now no control of source, and it seems this is the future.

 My fantasy club would have Technics, a Formulas Sound mixer and CD1000 MK2 (mk2 being incapable of mp3). I would also employ a 7th dan doorman with good ears.

 Happy New Year



And how is a CDJ1000mk2 acceptable?

It's fairly simple, you download the music via MP3 and rip it to a disc in CD format, making your music the same quality as the original MP3.

Once your music format is capable of digital intervention then your up shit creek with out a paddle!

I've had numerous DJs over the years tell me they are playing wav format due to them ripping their MP3's in to WAV format.

There is no way to get around idiots..... they are everywhere! Had one DJ New Year's Eve try and tell me one of my 2000 nexus's was knackard as it wouldn't play his corrupt CD he had burnet at home. Quite funny really as all 6 players we tried it on we're broken..... but seemed to work for everyone else.



-------------
www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 4:20pm
Plus may I add you can get a higher quality audio source of a USB than a CD.

Also you can get just as bad audio source of a CD than you can anything else.

-------------
www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by efinque efinque wrote:

I've played vinyl recorded and exported to 320kbps MP3 on a system.. I thought it sounded a bit different than mp3's from download stores (I should've A/B tested with a turntable too I guess but I didn't have one at the time)


They are different. A vinyl master has less compression than direct to digital masters so an MP3 derived from vinyl will sound better these days. It wasn't always that way but since the volume wars started mass produced digital sound quality has gone into the dumpster.


Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by jacethebase jacethebase wrote:

Plus may I add you can get a higher quality audio source of a USB than a CD.

Also you can get just as bad audio source of a CD than you can anything else.


I have found it's entirely dependent on the original source, some muppet uploading a tune to the internet,with no clue about levels, it's good to push it into the red isn't it? etc.etc. Only a small percentage tunes are recorded well with the correct levels.

There are some excellent uploads on youtube,from very high-end sources,but they are few and far between. The vast majority are tragic.


-------------
Be seeing you.


Posted By: nickyburnell
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by jacethebase jacethebase wrote:

[QUOTE=nickyburnell] This has gone off track.

My post was to highlight the way that USB DJ's    CAN    negate all the advances in tech at source.

So, would I rather listen to a CD/record on an 802 or a dick head Mp3 USB on a Yamaha DSR. Give me the 802 scenario any day.
 There is now no control of source, and it seems this is the future.

 My fantasy club would have Technics, a Formulas Sound mixer and CD1000 MK2 (mk2 being incapable of mp3). I would also employ a 7th dan doorman with good ears.

 Happy New Year



And how is a CDJ1000mk2 acceptable?

Yep, I knew someone would have to bring up that bit. You overlooked two things.

1. The word fantasy.
2. The 7th dan doorman who throws out every DJ without pre recorded bought CD's

Jesus this place, lighten up chaps

Unhappy


-------------
It's everything, not everythink!


Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by jbl_man jbl_man wrote:

Originally posted by jacethebase jacethebase wrote:

Plus may I add you can get a higher quality audio source of a USB than a CD.

Also you can get just as bad audio source of a CD than you can anything else.


I have found it's entirely dependent on the original source, some muppet uploading a tune to the internet,with no clue about levels, it's good to push it into the red isn't it? etc.etc. Only a small percentage tunes are recorded well with the correct levels.

There are some excellent uploads on youtube,from very high-end sources,but they are few and far between. The vast majority are tragic.


I have often wondered, what is the deal with YouTube & Audio uploads. For instance if I picked a CD of the rack or wav etc and uploaded it to YouTube. What would they upload it in? Guessing it's some low bit rate disaster but what?

-------------
www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Originally posted by jacethebase jacethebase wrote:

[QUOTE=nickyburnell] This has gone off track.

My post was to highlight the way that USB DJ's    CAN    negate all the advances in tech at source.

So, would I rather listen to a CD/record on an 802 or a dick head Mp3 USB on a Yamaha DSR. Give me the 802 scenario any day.
 There is now no control of source, and it seems this is the future.

 My fantasy club would have Technics, a Formulas Sound mixer and CD1000 MK2 (mk2 being incapable of mp3). I would also employ a 7th dan doorman with good ears.

 Happy New Year


And how is a CDJ1000mk2 acceptable?

Yep, I knew someone would have to bring up that bit. You overlooked two things.

1. The word fantasy.
2. The 7th dan doorman who throws out every DJ without pre recorded bought CD's

Jesus this place, lighten up chaps

Unhappy




We're all fairly light hearted over here, but if someone doesn't agree with something said or has input etc, they are more than welcome to put it in as you are your self etc.

I personally don't agree with a fair bit chatted about here these days. That's probably a bit to do with my path in the industry changing somewhat and the fact I'm getting a fair few grey hairs now.

Speakerplans as a whole is a pretty friendly forum. Try PSW if you want to see up tight :)

Happy to new year.

-------------
www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 9:16pm

So are all mp3s terrible evil shit or are 256 or 320kps ok?



Posted By: jacethebase
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

So are all mp3s terrible evil shit or are 256 or 320kps ok?




In all honesty, from experience if you heard a 320 that has been properly coded on a system that was set up well you would more than likely be ok with it. I am not saying I'm ok with MP3 as personally I think it's the worst thing to happen to the music industry ever.

256 and below are binners.

You would certainly notice the difference between it and a wav.

-------------
www.wedding-production.co.uk

www.stage2sound.com


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 9:23pm
Where efinque? Got a source?


Posted By: JonB67
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 9:24pm
we've been using 320 and im trying to work out if we bin the library and start again with wavs


Posted By: BJtheDJ
Date Posted: 06 January 2018 at 10:28pm
I do remember reading more than once in the long-ago past (most likely in Hi-Fi News) that the BBC's PCM (or maybe it was NICAM) digital distribution for VHF radio gave an equivalent to slightly less than 128kb/sec mp3.

Damned if I can find any reference to it on the web now <sigh>.

I do, however, remember coding my own mp3s from good-quality vinyl back in the day at 128kb/sec stereo and friends being amazed at being unable to reliably hear a difference; playback system was into a Citronic SM607 and then to an Amcron DC300a mkII feeding a pair of JBL L100's.  (TL072's in the Citronic had been swapped out for NE5532's (or was it 5534's - can't remember which was the dual)).

Even more surprising was coding my old rock'n'roll 7-inchers (stop  sniggering at the back there) at 64kb/sec mono and being very pleasantly surprised.

Spent many many hours editing WAV files to remove clicks and pops (especially my reggae 12s) to make CDs and then mp3s (always normalising for maximum peak waveform) and have always been happy with the results.

As time has progressed I've re-ripped those old (golden coloured) discs at 320 - mainly just in case modern programs are better and because the HD space is now available.  My ears are too shot nowadays to hear the difference in the HF myself; but I do get many comments on the excellent sound that I provide with just (most of the time) a pair of TurboSound iX12's and the addition for larger gigs of a pair of W-Audio active 15s.

Working in hotels - as I do in this latter part of my DJ career where my job is to provide what people want rather then what I think they ought to want - I see many other discos, and yes have heard some appalling sound from the red-liners out there; and it's not just the DJs but the singers with backing tracks on an iPod and the 4 and 5 piece bands with complete horn sections and extra percussion being played in from a computer.

Bad sound can be found everywhere, it's a fact of life.  The deafening wine bars and fashion stores, the person walking past you with their headphones on so loud that you can here the 'toonz' yourself; yep and the concerts (I remember a particularly bad Will Young concert at the Colston Hall in Bristol where even my wife and her friend, who had dragged me kicking and screaming to the event, had to leave at half-time) where the engineer's main aim in life has been to provide a concerto for bass guitar and kick drum - and the public by and large are now used to bad sound.

And because people have got used to it; the great thing is that when they hear decent sound (from me) they often appreciate it and come up and tell me about it.  It normally comes in the form of 'thank you for playing at a reasonable volume' when in fact it's the distortion that they haven't heard, so they think that the music's quieter.

I'm pretty certain that back in the day, when I played vinyl and later on a CDs, that my sound was no better than it is now with mp3s played not from a computer but from a memory stick and a 1TB hard drive through a Pioneer MEP7000 system with a DJM5000 mixer.

People with an axe to grind will always find some fault with what they want to complain about Smile


-------------
It's a difficult choice, would you rather have:

A: A vegan son.
B: An OnlyFans daughter


Posted By: colinmono
Date Posted: 08 January 2018 at 10:00am
Originally posted by nickyburnell nickyburnell wrote:

Decided it's best not to comment on anything I've heard in clubs or parties from now on.

When we had vinyl or CD there was an expected start point. Now these poxy digital, "DJ's" are using USB the quality is so variable it's not fair to judge the system. 
At a club twice recently and only two out of 8 so called Dj's had a clue about recording their USB stuff. I was blaming the (Logic) system but then DJ changed and wow.
Horrible, stop it, go away *ankers 

Yet another move forward in tech that compromises sound. Cheap SMPS, Chinese cabs, Plastic cabs, cheap powered cabs, YouTube recording, horrid sounding low end Pioneer mixers and USB DJ's.

In the mobile type market there is a trend for retro at mo. These guys with their Citronic 110w consoles and period Fane cabs sound tons better than nearly every wedding/band I've been to in the last 10 years.

Rant over

I kind of agree and disagree with your original post Smile.

I totally agree that there are some awful DJs out there playing some awfully produced material over crappy cheap kit.

I don't think it's useful to blame digital / USB per-se though, as has been said before the quality can be very high when done right.

I think the problem is more due to the way the barrier to entry for music production (and dj-ing) has come down so much. When I started djing I used to travel to London from the Midlands to buy vinyl, so once you factor in the train fare there was a real incentive to really listen to what you were buying and be selective.

The cost (in terms of effort and actual money) of a new track now is so low it's easy to be less picky, which results in DJ's playing crappy productions. Add in the fact that to get a vinyl release in the first place the tracks would need to be half decent and mastered properly.

A large proportion of new releases these days are mastered really badly, smashed into a brick wall limiter and downright painful to listen to at high volumes. The loudness wars are a big problem. I'd like to see the big online music sellers put a dynamic range rating next to tracks to help educate todays buyers. Perhaps a dynamic range rating on CDJ screens too, with a big "Poor quality track" warning that flashes on the screen when you load something that's been maximised to within an inch of it's life! Traktor / Serato could easily add that feature too, everyone's ears would thank them.

As far as MP3 goes... again it's not really the problem, a well produced track will sound great even at 128kbps. 256kbps has been shown to be indistinguishable from WAV in proper blind tests. Having said that, DJs should use uncompressed formats whenever possible in my view - these days there is simply no reason not to. If you record your sets then even more reason to use uncompressed tracks, since the likelyhood is you will end up re-compressing the recording to MP3 or similar when you distribute it.


Posted By: Earplug
Date Posted: 08 January 2018 at 5:45pm
"I kind of agree and disagree with your original post "

+1


Last DJ night I did was perfect example. First up were a couple of guys with a load of classic vinyl - all old ska and rock steady stuff from the 50´s and 60´s. It should have been a pleasure listening to them, but their turntables were awful - some no name plastic crap - and the desk was a horrible little 2 channel Numark piece of rubbish. They´d obviously spent all the cash on the vinyl and couldn´t afford any better. The result was really sad - no dynamics, no bass-end and just a mess.  Cry

Then I had a typical laptop-based DJ, but at least with decent gear and a proper desk - and she (yes, she Smile) understood about dynamics and making full use of the system, rather than just red-lining all the time. Result - the system came to life, the public started dancing and the atmosphere changed from slightly depressing, to a real blast. Chalk and cheese.





-------------
Earplugs Are For Wimps!


Posted By: Conanski
Date Posted: 08 January 2018 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by JonB67 JonB67 wrote:

we've been using 320 and im trying to work out if we bin the library and start again with wavs


It's real simple, play the MP3 track and the wav source it was derived from at the same time(synced) through the same system and listen with your back turned while somebody else switches back and forth between tracks. If you hear a hugh difference then your decision is obvious, but if you can't reliably pick out the MP3 over the wav then don't waste your time. My 2c on this is if the MP3s were well done you will have a very hard time picking them out.

The facts are MP3 do eliminate some content, that is no secret it is the basis of that type of data compression. I saw a neat video one time that used Audacity to extract the difference between a wav and MP3, that difference was something you could hear and there was no mistaking what the track was when played back. But there have also been numerous online comparisons between MP3 and other formats and in all of them it is anywhere from remarkably difficult to impossible to hear a difference. Some people do manage to hear a difference but it takes a controlled environment(dead silent) with a high resolution audio system that isn't being pushed as well as a trained listener that focuses on specific characteristics. None of this applies to a live music environment where there is substantial ambient noise and speakers are being pushed towards their performance limits, in that environment it's going to be much harder to hear a difference and reliably attribute it to the source type alone.


Posted By: mitchiemasha
Date Posted: 20 January 2018 at 5:27pm
This is good video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM&index=1&list=PLMsDBqRKUhb6beosxonWCki_F-VfoVfX_" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM&index=1&list=PLMsDBqRKUhb6beosxonWCki_F-VfoVfX_




Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.06 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2023 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net