Has anyone heard an all valve rig e.g. Axis, S&P?
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Topic: Has anyone heard an all valve rig e.g. Axis, S&P?
Posted By: Roman
Subject: Has anyone heard an all valve rig e.g. Axis, S&P?
Date Posted: 14 February 2018 at 3:53am
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I am putting together a vintage style rig. Looking at valve amps as an option. How do Valve a tron and Sound and Pressure sound compared to their solid state counterparts? We had a dance here using a valve amp on 4 scoops. I didn't hear enough of a difference to be convinced valve amps are necessary. Some people seem to be religious about the valve sound. Have you been to a Valve a torn or Sounds and Pressure dance? How was the sound? Valve amps are not the only factor though.
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Replies:
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 14 February 2018 at 10:16am
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A well designed valve amp run within its limits shouldn't sound a lot different to a solid state. There are differences such as reduced output damping and a reliance on output transformers that you can't get away from easily unless you are building some quite exotic OTL design. When you start to crank them up and clip them, things change a bit. Tbh building a valve amplifier for >100W output per channel the costs in transformers and parts start to become quite high, and its not a linear relationship. Even worse if you want to amplify bass frequencies. Unless you want quite a modest system, or are planning to use some very high efficiency drivers, I wouldn't be looking at all valve amplification. I'd build a valve pre-amp instead and run a more conventional system behind it. |
Posted By: Sheggy
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 8:52am
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Building up and running an all valve rig is expensive and takes a huge commitment. Paul Axis build his own equipment and can deal with the constant maintenance valve gear can need (especially if it's mobile). My take on it is this: valves sound smooth and loud on MT but this is less noticeable on the low end. You need to decide if it's the valve sound you want or the cachet of running a vintage system. The sound is so good from well designed and operated valve sounds, like Axis and Jah Observer, that people stop dead in their tracks. An all valve system better suits a small mobile system. Run scoops off heavyweight solid-state amps. Run mid bass, mid and tops off valve, if you can. Use valve pre-amps, and inductors in the signal path to get the valve sound. Be prepared to spend money and make compromises if you want to go down this route. Best of luck with this, it's not for weakhearts! S |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 12:13pm
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I am no weak heart!!!! Lifting my 600w double decker x12 6550's beast keeps me fit...... Unless you have big money to spend, dedication and can actually find a builder, it's not a recommended route. The Soundsystem who made valve sound part of their mystery is Jah Shaka. He used valves on bass for an effect, using distortion that valves can generate. I have operated a valve system (Tradition hi-fi) in a meeting with Valve-a-Tron. All I can say is the 500 Watt bass though his double 18's was SUBLIME. Sounds back in the day, kept the valves on bass, but used transistors for mid/tops duty. It all depends on what you want to sound like. In imho, a valve pre isn't noticeable enough to make a difference, but if you are after the growling bass a big valve amp is the only way.  ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 12:17pm
------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: Sheggy
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 12:32pm
Nice. 
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Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 12:52pm
Yeah, the outcome of the brilliant deal I did with Del from Leicester. Original Mr Eddy amp. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Sheggy wrote:Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 3:57pm
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Another thing about valves..... Their rated power output is based on a low THD. At this power level distortion is low, but driving them harder increases power output at the expense of distortion. This is why it is said, watt for watt, valve amps are louder but like I say, more distortion. On mid/tops, this is not desirable but on bass can invoke a sense of urgency/vibes. This is were the notioin of using your Soundsystem as an instrument in its own right comes in. When reggae is played this way, it's no longer about ultimate fidelity but more about vibes. The times where a dance had a crowd focused on the music and it's meaning are sadly gone, so being able to vibe it like this goes over the top of people's heads now. With modern equipment, vibing this way may lead to equipment distruction as well. A roaring, growling b-line has been replaced by pummeling the body. Pure distortion was never the game, using all the subtle changes to emphasise the bass line and charge up an atmosphere was. Shaka was the ruler in this. This is only my opinion, and other valve useres have other reasons to use this kit. But I come from a showbusiness angle where building emotion is the aim. Reggae used to be rebel music..... Good luck on your journey ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 9:21pm
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I'd say a valves power output rating is more linked to what the plate can take in terms of DC voltage/current before it melts. But this doesn't usually have much relation to audio, especially if you are designing a push-pull amplifier where a valve is only on ~50% of the time. Like the classic burst/RMS PSU ratings it is hard to put a finger on it exactly. If you want power then that means push-pull pentode design and as you say if you design for maximum current (and by extent max power) then you are going to increase the % THD distortion. Can't be avoided. Most valves die in this configuration when their screens melt as a result of chasing maximum output. For a longer and happier life it is a lot better to run them more conservatively. Nice photos though! I think they show the problems inherent in large valve amplification rather neatly. The tubes and associated wiring is dead simple (relatively). But the input and output iron for serious powers and bass frequencies. Heavy and £$. Hard to get hold of new I'd wager too, not much of a market for it. And older magnetics can deteriorate so buying second hand can be hit and miss. It really all does add up to it being a very keen enthusiasts game only. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 9:45pm
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Mmmm, does a TX core really change its magnetic properties? Generally, it's the output tx that dictates the sound before saturation occurs I believe. Overdriving valves does wear out the screen and output impedance is also crucial to this. The thing I like is the wave shape becoming a sort of saw tooth. I do know a builder who winds his tx's so they reproduce a square wave up to 40khz. His hifi amps do sound good. Unfortunately he's been brainwashed by the alt-right, but that's another story!! Maybe succumbed to too much RF radiation from his pirate radio transmitter heh heh..... Yes, the physical weight is horrible, but when people see the blue pulse in time with the b-line, they're sort of memorized! And they do seem to love it when the bass begins to fry. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 9:50pm
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I guess with valves, it's about selling the 'sizzle' not the steak... ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: colint
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 10:23pm
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Many many years ago I heard Admiral kens sound (Kenny Edwards), I'd gone to his club the bouncing ball in Peckham to try and sell him some HH V800's that he had shown some interest in, he fired the JBL loaded club system up, it was run of a single valve amp, superb awesome sound with very warm bass, couldn't sell him the amps simply because he didn't need them and it wouldn't have improved the sound. it's still one of the nicest most Hifi systems I've ever heard and apparently only half of what he used on the road. I love the valve sound if just for the warmth.
------------- Never criticise another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Once you have, call him what you like, you're a mile away and you've got his shoes! |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 10:40pm
It was warmth, not distortion that Valve-a-Tron had. And pure depth of bass, not got from modern transistors. Really suited the vintage selection ie Treasure Isle etc. He was running a links pre amp too. The only thing that looked out of place was the 1210 deck. Shame his valves were in box's so difficult to see the valves. Sublime sound. Real dedication. We were running about 3 times the power, but had wrong cabs  . one amp was originally Quaker City's. Beautiful sound from that one.It's hard to put a proper valve system together now, but done right, is worth it, just not recommend! Go for it OP.... ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 10:42pm
Didn't Admiral Ken have Mr Eddy's amps? I think Sheggy knows...? ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: colint
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 11:02pm
Haven't a clue to be honest all I know was he put a record on and it sort of traveled up your legs and took over everything it was a sublime moment and a lesson in audio for me. ------------- Never criticise another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Once you have, call him what you like, you're a mile away and you've got his shoes! |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 17 February 2018 at 11:56pm
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Just checked old post, Kumi Hi-fi added that Mr Eddie did build for Admiral Ken. Maybe you heard one of his pieces. Afaik, Mr Eddie was the first man to build heavy weight soundsystem equipment in this country for the wind rush generation. Duke Vin had his equipment built by Mr Eddie. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:14am
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Well what if my speaker configuration was: (4) quad bass reflex (house of joy) (wardrobe)'s with JBL 2245H drivers. (4) double 15 reflex boxes with JBL 2226H drivers. (4) JBL 2445H 2 inch compression drivers with wooden Markus Klug 1005B horns. Here is the data sheet for the subs: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2445J.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2445J.pdf I am a total newbie with PA technology and speaker design. I have other threads currently discussing the design of a quad bass reflex box. If I wasn't intending to play music too loud, just big and full for a nice dance. How would these particular drivers and the number of them (16) affect the option of using valve amplification? Do the current valve amplified sound systems run mids and tops from valve amps? With my very limited knowledge I have calculated that if I run (2) drivers on each channel of a stereo amp then the impedance of the speakers is halved from 8 to 4 Ohms and the wattage of the amp at 4 Ohms is halved because the drivers are in parallel with 2 drivers per channel. One crest 9001 per quad. So a crest 9001 which outputs 2200W at 4 Ohms per channel would be delivering 1100W per JBL 2245H 600W 8 Ohm driver. The recommendation I have read is to have double the drivers max RMS wattage in amplification wattage to the driver. But forum responders have noted that the JBL 2245H has an xmax of 9.5mm which I believe is less movement than other loudspeakers like PD's, and could be damaged. But 16 cones and not playing to ear hurting levels might not need huge SPLs. The idea that the JBL 2245H is not the best driver for my intentions has been raised. 16 subwoofers in a club should be overkill. I have a friend who has hand made many tube amplifiers. He hand winds transformers and has made bass amps (ampeg 100watt clone), guitar amps, and home stereo amps. Once I have built one of the quad 18 boxes and one double 15, we will test it with his amps clone and I also have an Ampeg V4 100W tube amp. |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:18am
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What I think I need to know is a simple logical way to prevent any damage to the speakers. How many reggae sound systems, or other genres for that matter, use limiters. Wouldn't a limiter be insurance to prevent amp overload and speaker damage. I don't even understand what amp overload is. But apparently it is a danger to drivers. If the limiter was set to some safe threshold, perhaps it would also serve as a visual reference of when you are sending too much level to the amps. You wouldn't want any limiting on your beautiful dynamic sound anyway. So when you see the limiter meters showing limiting then you could back the level feeding the amps down. What is the simplest way to keep the speakers and amp safe from too much level? Thanks, Roman.
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Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:21am
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Hey, this might be a good time to bring up the question. How much valve amplification would I need for a quad 18 with JBL 2245H speakers.
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Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:27am
I think 500 Watts per cab would do it. Doesn't sound like much, but as pointed out in other threads, you big cabs reduce power handling of the drivers. Btw, you are on a very steep learning curve. But don't let that put you off. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:44am
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Valve head, appropriate name. Paul Huxtable was marketing a valve amp called the tradition 500. How many watts is that one? If an amp is mono, how does that work. Seems like half the channels. 500W to 4 JBL2245H's. My tube amp maker friend thinks 200W is plenty for the quad. But he may not understand reggae sound system needs. Again, I don't think I need overly loud show off power. But an over spec'ed system probably has it's benefits. Would a 500W valve amp deliver 125W per driver in a quad 18 bass reflex cabinet? 125W to a 600W driver. I have read that tube watts are worth about 4 solid state watts. Funny thing to type.
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Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:46am
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What compromises would powering the mids and tops with valve amps cause? Isn't that what other valve sound systems do?
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Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 1:54am
My valve amp maker friend can and does wind his own transformers.
Are JBL 2245H's efficient enough? http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2245h.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2245h.htm I don't want painful sound levels, probably quite modest compared to some sound systems. But big bass is a must. I am hoping 16 subwoofers in 4 quads would give big bass.
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Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 2:53am
I have a friend who has made many valve amps and hand winds transformers.
Interesting isn't it. Others in this thread have reported the opposite. Valve on subs only.
Me and the valve amp builder will test my first MDF prototype Quad 18 and double 15 with horns, with his 100W amp clone and my amp V4. I guess we will evaluate how loud it goes. Roman.
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Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 11:31am
Magnetics certainly can decay with time, some worse than others. Depends a lot on how the material is constructed I expect. Also laminations can come loose over time and start buzzing etc. For sure the output Tx has an influence on the sound but imho the key to it all is the interplay between the output valves and the Tx together in terms of setting a load line. Plus of course anything you design the pre-amplification driver stages to achieve. Indeed setting the primary impedance is very important when it comes to your valve plates melting or not! And that is also affected by the load you put on the transformer secondary. In the opposite direction to solid state a valve amp is more likely to go pop if you put a higher impedance on the output Tx secondary. A sawtooth wave is a combination of odd harmonics, so would be linked with a push pull output stage that tends to cancel the evens. Pentodes also tend more towards odd harmonics as I recall, can't quite remember why off my head though. A well reproduced square wave up to 40KHz is quite respectable bandwidth, wonder what the lower limit of such an output Tx is. More of a guitar amp person these days, but maybe in the future I'll have a go at some dual channel stuff. Spending a lot of time currently looking into variable power reduction circuits for guitar amps. |
Posted By: csg
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 11:42am
No, watts are watts, doesn't matter if they are being produced by valves, analogue transistors or digital transistors. the confusion comes from the elegant and forgiving way that valve amps clip - as has been said by others valves and their associated output coupling go out of their linear window smoothly, whereas transistors clip hard ( unless this is controlled by external circuitry) and very quickly sound very poor. in short, you can push a valve amplifier further beyond its linear envelope before the result is unpleasant, just make sure that your output transformers are up to the job - in my view this is where great valve amplifiers are born. Be vary careful regarding limiters - used by the inexperienced, or relied upon to protect a system this can easily reduce the dynamic range and increase the long term average power that will cook your voice coils. With large valve amplifiers that can provide continuous, sustained output, this danger is greater still. ------------- “The fact is this is about identifying what we do best and finding more ways of doing less of it better” |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 2:03pm
Out of interest, what valve amps did you use, and what scoop/driver combination? ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 6:05pm
I realise that actual magnets degrade over time, but new to me that the iron core in a transformer can have less flux over time. I realise the laminations can separate causing loss of effiency, but the ones I have are very high quality solid 'c' cores. For bass duties, found pentodes not so much to my liking, seem to get harsher quicker when over driven (maybe a plus for a guitarist). ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 7:00pm
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I'm not 100% sure tbh, if you read Morgan Jones he most definitely ascribes to the deterioration of older magnetics such as chokes and transformers. I don't have enough real life experience to be totally confident in it. But entropy gets all things eventually so it would not surprise me if magnetic dipoles could reorder over time, perhaps due to the microstructure of the steel changing. I am thinking many decades here as opposed to a few years. Pentodes probably do get harsher quicker when overdriven but as always the devil is in the details of how the particular circuit was made and what being overdriven means. Triodes are less noisy in general and usually the choice for HiFi as a result. Pentodes certainly dominate the world of higher power guitar but I couldn't say if its for tone or an easy power boost. Probably the 2 are inter related as always! |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 7:53pm
It's an interesting topic. Given the earths core is iron and magnetic, I wonder whether the continual heating rejuvenates the magnetic quality of the iron..... I'll check out the writing of Morgan Jones. It would be interesting to plot the changes in tx's and chokes used in applications such as the BBC world service transmitters that have run continually for decades. I guess they would need to be fairly stable. It would also be interesting to have an hour meter on my amp to see how long/many times it's been used. I guess it's age to be 45-47 years old! ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: woody2
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 8:01pm
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i remember a valve system are leeds area in the late 70s. they used ex-bbc valve amps, they could of been modified valve transmitter amps? used to cover 3000+ people |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 18 February 2018 at 8:11pm
I can believe it. heard of a sound in Brum, had amps with transmitter valves which smoked 20 18's in one go! There's an American duds on youtube who builds ridiculous amps, and uses a perspex sheet between him and amp, cos when they go bang, they really go bang! Being that it's getting big tx's wound which is the hardest, and the OP has a friend capable of doing it, I await earthly vibrations originating from NZ. No need to inform us via a forum, just whack the b-line up...... I can guess' No No No' from quite a distance......!! ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 19 February 2018 at 11:13am
I've got a mental image of a chap face who winds reasonably sized 50-100W sized output Txs being presented with a picture and spec of the desired 20kg beast  If the funds are there it'd be a neat challenge anyway. I wonder if there is a market for 500W-ish channel PA amplifiers still. Bit of a lost art but no reason it couldn't be revived a little if the customers are there. Tube production doesn't look like it is ceasing anytime soon. Even transmitter tubes are still being produced for applications that demand them. Typically 7-10kV regulation is required for thin film evaporation processes for a start and that is a huge market which produces the compound semiconductors behind the wireless RF comms boom. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 19 February 2018 at 6:39pm
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When John Chambers (Champs) let it be known via interweb he was making 1k monk blocks, he had alot of interest. Niche business but probably still doable if advertised to the right people. Btw, my amp probably could do with 750v 47uf(?? I think) cans. Finding difficult to get them tho. Seems like high voltage are hard to find. As said before, if one is dedicated, they can be built. I think just having valve amps tucked away doing their thing is not feasible, the need to be noticed for sound and looks. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 19 February 2018 at 6:46pm
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Hope this hasn't gone too off topic for the OP...... 16 drivers, 4 cabs fed with 500w of valve power each would be a system to behold. Drop John Holts 'Ali Baba' on Treasure Isle....... Bring a smile to my face!!! ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: odc04r
Date Posted: 19 February 2018 at 9:06pm
Yeah I agree on the looks, people buy them to make a statement not just solely push electrons. I'm not going to do anything serious about it for years but might take a crack sometime in the future when I have a few more guitar amps under the belt. 750V caps do sound tricky (and expensive). One shortcut is potentially replacing with 2x500V in series (of 2x47uF each, 100uF total would be fine) and include parallel resistors to equalise voltages over them. A pretty common trick when the parts bin doesn't have quite what you need. You can get a double cap enclosure of this rating for about £10 which would probably drop right in and replace the existing with an appropriate mounting collar. E.g. https://modulusamplification.com/Capacitor-can-100uf-100uf-500v-ma-cap-P680732.aspx" rel="nofollow - https://modulusamplification.com/Capacitor-can-100uf-100uf-500v-ma-cap-P680732.aspx ? |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 19 February 2018 at 9:13pm
Nice, thanks for the tip  ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 19 February 2018 at 10:41pm
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'Ali baba' is on Studio One. 'It's the same song but a different feeling I get' That's Treasure Isle.
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Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 19 February 2018 at 10:47pm
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John Holt did Ali Baba on Treasure Isle. I have a copy. You would like the bass. Check some selection. I believe the Dub cut is mixed by the great King Tubbys.  https://youtu.be/FCP5HvTnZo4 ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 19 February 2018 at 10:49pm
| I've got best of john holt on studio one with ali baba on it. The rhythm was recently revived with Gappy Ranks amongst others. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 19 February 2018 at 10:51pm
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Yes but the HEAVY version is //youtu.be/FCP5HvTnZo4 ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 19 February 2018 at 10:53pm
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You may like to search for a compilation called 'hottest hits'. Nuff said. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 19 February 2018 at 11:03pm
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Got this going through my head now 'Oops, I did it again, I played with your sound, I'm not that INNOCENT' Lol, just teasing.... ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 1:23pm
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Ok Here goes, my take on tube amplification-sound system-etc First question in the thread was what do Axis-sounds and pressure etc sound like, Sounds warm very good in the mid smooth treble, bass very deep from the reflex cabs, sounds vintage, I beleive cant say for certain but the amps maybe vintage style GEC ultralinear they distort in the bass when driven hard, Bass amps not really big enough IMHO, distortion is not saturation but Overdrive-powersupply generated, GEC circuit is a voice frequency amplifier. In short it has its place. I will attempt to clarify the valve watts power Question,in simple terms Yess watts are watts, 100 watts from a pair of kt88 is a 100 watts, but when you start to parrallel them up, add another pair you double the current which gives 4 times the music power=400 watts, add another 4-double the current=1600 watts add another 8-6400 watts and so on this is fact, also there is far less negative feed back in a tube amp than SS, this helps When designing a big tube amp you should try minimise/eliminate as much distortion causing interaction of the various stages as possible-Regulate your voltages, screens, pre-driver stage-filament supplies, its not really practical with the plate supply-but you must have sufficient smoothing to deal with PEAK current transients, the old-Established-vintage designs dont do this, they are ok for PA-Guitars-ETC but useless for sound system use, the guys back in the day knew this and improved as much as they could with the technology-materials available at the time, but thing have moved on, I have built an amp with 12 output tubes that Drives 6x PD 2150,s to full tilt, we have not got it to distort yet, What did happen was that several people Exsperienced eye wobble it was that heavy-Blow a K20 into the weeds, I have my transformers wound in a very specific way to make them as efficient as possible and minimise losses and distortion......Vacuum state is the best there is....PERIOD Hope this helps. PS Axis big 807 amp is fully regulated, and will sound awsome because of it ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 3:14pm
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Great info Mr Flinnt45. I only heard the 10x kt88 amps that Axis has, but sounded sublime. My amp I'm sure, is based on the GEC design, very simple power supply. Output tx not the original tho, slightly smaller than the original footprint on the chassis. I wonder how it would sound if redesigned with new technology/technique. Btw, the 26 valve monster never got built, the guy took all the parts I invested in and used them for his own projects. Oh well..... ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 3:31pm
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Hey thats unfourtunate, yes the GEC design is a voice frequency circuit the input splitter driver curcuit is based on the williamson, Bass is not great below 100 HZ not saying its not there, but tends to be bouncy and distorted, treble rolls off at about 14 khz or so but was the cutting edge in the 1950,s its the input splitter driver thats the amplifier, the output stage is just to turn that into power, to improve the kt88 type ultra linear amp you need to change this, supply its power via a regulator so the signal does not bounce around, and increase the power supply capacitance on the plate supply rule of thumb minimum 1000 uf for every amp of current required by the output stage, I will point you in the direction of Radford, the STA 100, I have built this, difference between night and day- frequency response plus or minus 1 db 20hz to plus 20khz, you will need a very very good output transformer tho. ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 7:54pm
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Food for thought! So, very simply, if the driver stage had its own regulated power supply, that would stop voltage sag on transients from pulling down the drive voltage, driving the output stage. That sounds relatively easy to achieve. My amp is only for driving bass, so an esoteric output tx may not be essential. The guy that took my parts alluded to the lack of inherent bass response but to get round that, I just boosted the frequency on its input.. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 7:56pm
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Having said that, the output tx isn't correct, as when driving the amp you can see valves on one side driving harder than the other, but cone movement is fine. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: Sypa
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 10:13pm
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Got any pics of that amp senor Flinnt ? |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 10:21pm
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The man that I know locally that has built quite a few valve amps has a music studio with homemade valve guitar and bass amps. He also makes them for amplifying a CD player. His bass amp is a clone of the Ampeg SVT amp but made to be 100W. He says all amps have a very similar circuit. Marshall etc. Maybe just a little difference that gives a distinct tone. Hey Flint Jah Kreator you sound knowledgable on valve amp design. What kind of valve amps would you recommend for my configuration of (4) quad 18 bass reflex boxes, (4) double 15's and (4) horns. JBL2245H 18s, 2226H 15s and 2445H 2 inch compression drivers. I am now needing to plug the JBL data parameters into WinISD cabinet design software and share the results on my cabinet build threads so people can offer advice. I'm on a mac computer so I either need to use some PC software to mac software to run WinISD or go to someone with experience and cabinet design calculation software. I've read comments that King Tubby had valve amps on bass and SS on the rest for warm bass and crisp highs. Your quote of 20HZ to 20Khz makes me wonder if all valve would sound better on the highs. It would be nice not to miss out on frequencies and dull the music. Or maybe some dulling isn't a big issue if playing only 70s and older. 14Khz is still pretty sizzley for hi hats I would have thought. But I would prefer as much frequency range as possible. How would I evaluate the amp design that my friend is proposing? Flintt45's input makes me feel confident that I can check with others if the amp design we intend to use is the best option for my needs. This amp builder isn't a reggae sound system person. More just a musician who listens at home or would have a modest level. Once I have settled on a cabinet design for my house of joy/wardrobe quad 18s with matching width double 15 cabinet, me and Dad will make an MDF prototype of one quad and double 15 cabinet to test. And using my Ampeg V4 bass guitar amp and my amp builder friends 100W Ampeg clone we will play some music through it and try to gauge our wattage needs. IE see how loud it goes. And then try to imagine 4 of them playing. I can imagine ending up with 7 separate amps. One for each quad, 2 more for the (8) 15's and one more for the horns? Seems a bit silly having that many separate amps. I suspect I may not need as much power as the HEAVY english sounds. Just enough to have a nice dance, maybe I can do some PA stuff with bands, and maybe a little extra power if I want to subtly go overboard with bass and volume. I don't believe in hurting anything including our ears and I only see myself playing to medium sized venues as opposed to rock stadiums.
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Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 11:12pm
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Hey uneven drive is unbalanced bias, bias needs to be done dynamically with a scope and signal generator and dvm ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 11:13pm
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Hey valve head thats nothing to do with the output TX ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 11:18pm
 I hope the pic has uploaded------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 11:24pm
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Hey Ronan correct me if I am wrong but you are playing 3 way? so four amps will do 16x 18 inch drivers will need an amp like the one in the pic i have posted the double 15,s a thousand will do, two 300,s for the top end, these would be OTL they have the best treble of any type of amp bar none ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 11:25pm
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Yeah it did!! Looking good, nice to see it done.... Gonna send a PM.... ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 23 February 2018 at 11:31pm
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Hey Valve head you also need the best output tx that you can afford so that you can apply good feedback and maintain stability I have all mine wound 30hz to 30 khz plus or minus 1 db ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 12:06am
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Some have recommended adding bullets because the JBL 2445H horns roll off at 10Khz a bit. I'd like to hear them and evaluate before I comment. Hmm, so an amp per quad. How many watts? The 18s are 8 Ohm so with my limited knowledge that means 4 drivers on one amp channel would equal 2 Ohms? I was thinking of getting Crest 9001 amps which are 2200W at 4 Ohms per channel. So that would halve to 1100W per driver, with (2) drivers per channel. One Crest 9001 per quad (is that overkill?). But the Crest is two channels. How many channels are these tube amps? I am assuming one. So wouldn't that mean I only have the option of running a 2 Ohm load when all four 8 Ohm speakers are on the same channel? Paul Axis has some tweeters as well so I guess he is 4 way? I think I better play it safe and add some tweeters if I want to have the best reproduction of high frequencies. Then I could control the level of the tweets. How many would I need? What are the smoothest sounding tweeters? Flintt45, you must have a sound system? Jah Kreator sound. What is your speaker configuration? As a total newbie, you are whetting my appetite with tidbits of info that are important. And your the first person to try and explain why valve watts get claimed to be worth 4 SS watts. Could you give me a ball park figure of how much all the valve amps I would need to have built would cost? My amp building friend hand winds his own transformers. He claims his transformers are over spec'ed for his amps.
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Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 12:25am
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4X Is correct ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 12:43am
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Hi Roman, you misunderstand one amplifier for all of your quads what is the power rating of the JBL drivers ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 12:45am
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Hi Roman one amplifier will run your four quad boxes, its 1.5 kw, worth about 7,5 k of solid state ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 12:48am
A local sound system here in Auckland, New Zealand had an English person build a 1000W amp. It powered 4 scoops with (I think) PD's. Is that too vague?
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Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 12:49am
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Tweeters, JBL Baby bums cant be beat, except if money no object Gauss big tweet 1502 I Beleive ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 12:51am
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your amps at the same time 8k GBP ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 12:54am
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sounds like a good balance ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 12:58am
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hi roman 4 x 21 subs 4 x 15 bass gauss 4582 2 x mid compression drivers jbl 2482 4 x jbl baby bum tweeters ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 3:26am
Oh, so you mean one amp for the four quads. How do you power 16 8 Ohm speakers from one amp. From my limited knowledge of Ohmage, I am guessing you need multiple outputs. Maybe 8 outputs that can handle a 4 Ohm load so two drivers per output? Is that how it works? Here is the data sheet for the JBL 2245H's I will be using. http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2245h.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2245h.htm Flinnt45, have you built any valve amps for other sound systems? What is your sound system configuration with amps, drivers and cabinets. For 8Kish GBP. What would the amps be comprised of? Number and type of tubes, transformers. Any basic data. I googled OTL amplifier. And learned it means output transformer-less. Is that what makes the high frequencies smooth? So one big amp for the 16 subs, another for the 15s and two more for the four horns. JBL baby cheeks are the fibreglass horns that are attached to the 2 inch compression drivers I am going to use with wooden multi cell horns. What are baby bum cheek tweeters? Are you referring to the 2445H compression drivers? I thought tweeters were different. Like bullet tweeters for the highest frequencies above 10Khz. Roman. |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 4:00am
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So I am guessing 2 JBL tweeters per quad for a total of 8 would be appropriate? Would that get all the sizzle required?
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Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 4:02am
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I googled baby bum tweeters and discovered 2405's etc. |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 4:03am
And cabinets? Scoops I assume. I googled JBL baby bum tweeters and discovered the small 2404
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Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 7:30am
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What are the best JBL tweeters for my configuration? How many do I need? Roman.
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Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 8:13am
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Hi Roman the amp in the pic I built for Trojan 7 I have built one for Melody creator and am building two more them then It start my own in April I do not use scoops i use the jbl mods and tops because i like the fact they will always be repairable ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 9:01am
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Trojan. Earl Gateshead's sound system? So you use bass reflex cabinets. Maybe you can help with our amp design. Is that stepping out of bounds? Roman.
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Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 9:17am
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Posted By: jbl_man
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 11:48am
Now that is lovely. Just out of curiosity,i see you have added a fan,what is approx. life expectancy of the valves in something like this? ------------- Be seeing you. |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 1:16pm
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Two fans actually the way these are run maybe 10years ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 1:27pm
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Hi Roman choices re speakers i cannot advise ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 2:24pm
Thanks. I wonder if the amp was built by a man called John Chambers. Several were built a few years ago. He's not the only builder tho. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 3:00pm
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You mean the amp in the picture ? ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 3:08pm
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No, I know that's your beauty..... John built some 1k mono blocks a number of years ago, can see pic's on the web, using 813's afaik. Edit.... Got valve number wrong ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 9:35pm
When it arrived in New Zealand. Apparently it didn't work. It took a bit of rebuilding as I understand it. The buyer was disappointed. So the builder isn't respected.
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Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 24 February 2018 at 10:15pm
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Not Mr Champs then, because he is respected. Was the designer for some guitar amps dating from the 60's. Maybe, if you are interested in valve amplifiers, Google John Chambers. Why get one from England if builder available from NZ? Valve amps tend to need maintenance input to keep them running sweet. If the amp your mate bought was fundamentally flawed via design, then yeah, resect lost. Sorry to hear of your disappointment. As said by others, valves need dedication. You could get an equally vintage sound via old design MOSFET amps. Mofets also have some ofthe characteristics of valves. I also own Mr Eddie early mono block mosfet amps, and when pushed sound fantastic. Did you check the track I was on about earlier?? ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 25 February 2018 at 2:33am
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You mean John Holt's ali baba? Yes Would I compromise sound quality by not using a reggae pre amp? I want to plug everything into an Allen and Heath Mix Wizard 16 channel mixer. I would utilise fancy tube phone pre's outputting line level to the mixer. The mixer would feed a crossover and the 4 way crossover over come back into 4 mixer channels that wouldn't be assigned to the master bus feeding the crossover, thus avoiding feedback. But outputting directly to the amps. Clever eh! Then I would have heaps of channels for mic's, effects and 8 track multi track audio for dubs like Mad Professor does. And of course I could control the crossover levels from the faders. Or maybe this is unnecessary if I just adjust crossover levels on the crossover? I wouldn't want to accidentally press the 'master bus' assign switches on the crossover channels creating a feedback loop.
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Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 25 February 2018 at 2:57am
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Can be done that way, just depends on your own preference. sometimes known as a ghetto pre. Nobody has to have a reggae pre-amp ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 25 February 2018 at 3:23pm
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Great replys , info and reasonings Superb!!! thanks all ------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Posted By: studio45
Date Posted: 25 February 2018 at 4:07pm
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Control system using Mixwiz + outboard is a great idea I think. Preamps can be great, or they can be terrible, either way they cost £££££$$$$$$€€€€€€ and once you've got it you're stuck with it. I heard the Valv-a-tron when it came to Sheffield last year, and thoroughly enjoyed it. It had all the qualities people normally ascribe to valve amps - "warm" was the word that instantly came to mind - Just a subtle harmonic fuzz on the bass now and again, but plenty of clean headroom, and of course Paul's selection was flawless and kept the rockers moving all night  For me, another fun part was the smell of the amps! That nice ozone/hot Bakelite whiff of a big valve at proper operating temperature....mmmmm....if you smell that in a transistor powered dance, the dance soon done! ------------- Studio45 - Repairs & Building Commotion Soundsystem -Mobile PA |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 25 February 2018 at 11:05pm
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Dub specialist. Welcome to my thread. I am looking to build four quads. How tall, wide and deep is the one you built? Did you weigh it? What are the possible sonic benefits of a fancy reggae pre amp vs fancy phono pre amps into a 16 channel mixer? In the musically mad documentary, Mostec claims they have better sound and rounder bass. I would like to be more specific about these factors. Mad Professor plays live with an Allen and Heath Mix Wizard. I assume the sonically vulnerable part are the phono pre amps? A 16 channel mixer would allow mic'ing of musicians. Maybe have a horn section and singers over some digital rhythms or something. Maybe a band for a special event.
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Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 11:35am
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Hi Roman what do you mean by fancy phono pre, I own a 4 way mostec custom to my requirements, its extremely quick, and in side by side with a barracuda and an old toshiba 330 no comparison they cant get near it for sound quality, one sound that I know uses a mixing desk here in the UK is Eternity with good results. ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 11:40am
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Hi Valvehead, the project got aborted as dangerous, johns 813 I mean, he also built a 20 x 807 1000 watter, not sure how many he built but looked good when I saw it, too many tubes for too little power for me dont see the point. ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: DMorison
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 1:44pm
That reminds me of the old adage: Every machine is a smoke machine.... .... if you use it wrong enough
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Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 4:01pm
That's a shame, was it too dangerous for a human being or potentially a sound bwoy killa! Looked ready to go. What valves do you use? I'll be in contact via info left in pm (thanks) once I've had time to pick the piece up. Cheers. Btw, is Mr Chambers still approachable? I've got friends/contacts in Notts still and visit periodically. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 4:06pm
I love the Mostec pre I've operated on. Very good in a dance situation and high quality sound, however I still love the JTS sound/pre, I think it's slightly more surgical operator wise, harder to tame if not experienced. And as for barracuda, tops always need taming (imho). I have also used a mixer, with xover and a resonant filter on bass to good effect. If the mixer has good eq, send and returns etc, the it's not that different from a pre. A pre is all that neatly packaged into one box and tweaked for Dub/reggae. Get the best TT pre you can for use in front of the mixer. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 5:58pm
Fancy phono pre amp would be something that costs more than the phono pre amps in a Vestax DJ mixer. I was thinking the valve mono phono pre amp that Paul Axis Huxtable was marketing as a product on youtube. Supposedly a step up from the cheaper ones. The idea being that the amplification of the small signal generated by a record needle is a critical stage for sound quality. Once it is at line level it is more robust. That is my simple understanding. It would be important for comparisons sake to be more specific about why Mostec preamps are superior to whatever those things you mentioned were. I don't know barracuda or toshiba 330. Just googled them. So a barracuda is a custom crossover reggae pre amp. But you are saying the Mostec is way better sounding. I wonder why? Better design and components. I would hope that with quality phono pre amps into a Mix Wizard 16 into a quality crossover into valve amps the sound would be uncompromised. Is there some mystery sauce to the Mostec pre amp?
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Posted By: Dub Specialist Sound
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 6:11pm
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Cool Roman, Sorry for not putting any input into this thread, there so many question , msg, info ect i find it a little overwelming man hope it makes sense  My Quad Box is 5.5ft High, 4ft Width, 2ftt depth just under, so internal litres are around 1000/1200 taking into account rear of the drivers , some mega bracing in there too, Weight not atm , but i will be weighing asap so will let you know, its heavy lol all imho mixers just done do it for me, i use pre-amp JTS and not to be under estimated , serouis lows tubbs allways known for that, i think great all all sound, just like it does everthing in one unit , remmebr its whats hanging off the ends on amps pre amps, yu cant make a bad mid driver good with anyth8ing tbh, ok-ish yes but yu know what i mean but also i have a vintage racks for the Quad , with Sage bass pre on it custom mosfet ab amps, unreal lows we talking low freq.... i still rate all reagge pre out there still,heards loads ect Great thread ppl..love it!!!...little pic attached lol   ------------- Musical Roots Reggae Vibration is Life! for music is sound...sound is vibration...vibration is energy... and energy begets life. Therein lies my passion!...MUSIC IS LIFE... |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 6:12pm
Exactly my thinking. But I am not experienced with reggae sound system. Just making beats and recording people. I think some sound system norms are overrated. Or I suspect they are. For example: Adding echo to the mids or tops of music. Hmmm, that is far less important to me than having really good sound, nice tunes and dancing to them. I have grown to appreciate the bass drop thing. Leaving out the subs until the operator feels the crowd will get the bass un-muted. It definitely can be fun. I like the one turntable method. It gives me a chance to shout a sentence or two in someones ear. Usually 'I wonder if they will play the dub' or 'here comes the dub ha ha' Lots of fun. I don't want the cliched siren effect. I want to have something different. Maybe my old Korg MS20 through a delay. Sci Fi baby. But yeah, high quality sound is a top priority. No compromise in fact. Are there differences in crossover quality? Can I get a crossover with selectable frequency points. A 16 channel mixer allows for more effects like reverbs and delays. Essentially the Mad Professor set up of having a studio in the dance. Live dubs of multitracks with vocalist on top. Pretty special to have original music manipulated live. Adrian Sherwood came to New Zealand a few years ago. It was advertised as a live dub show. Hmmm, I love live dub. I went and all I witnessed was him playing CDs and adding echo to bits of the song and hitting some sound effect roland type synth sampler thing. No multitrack dub like the marketing had me believe. Disappointed. Proper gain staging will be the most important thing I think. Not overloading any stages of the mixer etc. Should be fine. But I don't want to miss out on any special reggae pre amp sauce.
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Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 6:17pm
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I would need to analyse what components a reggae pre amp consist of and see if I need those. One factor I recall is something like a parametric eq that people use to sweep frequency bands for effect. I am not sure I have heard this used in New Zealand. It may be a less important, even corny undesirable effect IMO. I have an Electric Filter Factory analogue filter. I imagine that could be dangerous for the amp and speakers. Sweeping the bass and generating a huge level. Maybe a limiter would be a safety feature for its use.
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Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 6:23pm
Simply put, for my stated intentions of doing the Mad Prof live dub of original mutitracks, I need a 16 channel mixer like the Mix Wizard. So that's the starting point. Then adding high quality phono pre amps and crossover is the next additions. You mention sweeping the bass. I don't think I've heard that effect used in NZ. Not sure though. Mad Professors shows sound good through a Mix Wizard. So any features that I am missing out on would have to be cobbled into the system. But it will be more flexible than a big expensive mysterious reggae pre amp. Yeah I said it. I think people add a little too much mystery to the reggae pre amp. But in the documentary 'musically mad' one sound system guy was adamant that as long as they has their little reggae pre amp, they had the sound that was their personality. So there must be something to the reggae pre amps that contribute to a sound system unique character. Mostec in the film also says that people use the same pre amp differently getting there own sound. So yes I do need to put together separate units that will cover all my needs and allow the best sound system features.
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Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 6:29pm
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Imho, when we are playing records, having an echo delay is absolutely. Essential. The dance is flat music wise if there is nothing but a flat voice or silence between tracks. To be able to pull out bits of a tune and echo them on the fly is what makes playing a record into more of a performance imo. Most systems don't have the luxury of playing a mastered multi track tape inna dance, so.they Dub the record. This is a reason why it's only mid and tops that get delayed. Remember, an interesting system is an entertaining system, people go to dances for.vibes, not just to hear their fav tunes louder than they play at home. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: valve head777
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 6:39pm
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How 'Vintage' do you want your system? With respect, it seemsike it's only the look of the speakers. I don't know of any original sound that routinely played multi tracks on their system. Original systems had pre release records to play, displaying connections to.studios. sweeping frequency's is how a record gets vibes, don't have to be dangerous to system or ears. This is the operators forte. There is so much more than simply setting eq and letting tune run. ------------- Freedom of choice, choice of freedom. |
Posted By: flinnt45
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 6:46pm
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Hi Valve head yes john is still about though he has an elderly relative whom he cares for so not sure how much he,s doing, certainly stopped doing transformers, his mate john wood was the person who advised re the 813 amp, he winds the transformres now, think he was involved in AXIS amp re the transformers, I use octal based sweep tubes my Fav is the 6lw6 familly. ------------- JAH Kreator Hi Fi |
Posted By: Roman
Date Posted: 26 February 2018 at 6:50pm
I have photos of your quad and Paul Axis's one. But I want to get out the tape measure and visualise how big it might end up. But my drivers have unique parameters that will dictate the design. I hope me wanting big romantic quad cabinets doesn't prevent me from getting them into some venues.
Mixers don't do it for you. Your assertion is that for serious lows you need a reggae pre amp like a JTS.
I'm not sure I do. Your grammar and spelling is unusual. Something hanging off the amps. The pre amp perhaps? You can't make a poor quality mid driver good with something?
So your speaker stack fits under a normal house ceiling. Actually that room looks quite tall. That has been a consideration of mine. Will my quad plus double 15 plus multi cell horn be too high for some spaces? Beautiful rig you've made.
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