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12" BPH design.

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Category: Plans
Forum Name: New Projects Forum
Forum Description: Forum for new speakerplans projects, in memory of Tony Wilkes, 1953 - 2014
URL: https://forum.speakerplans.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=101446
Printed Date: 18 April 2024 at 11:28pm
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Topic: 12" BPH design.
Posted By: LeruSound
Subject: 12" BPH design.
Date Posted: 06 March 2018 at 9:27pm
I'm gonna post here some HR pics of Response of this 12" BPH i'm modeling. I have some questions OFC as this is my first BPH




This is response with 18Sound 12ND730



This is response of B&C 12NDL76



First, tuning of band pass resonating part is quite high, around 150 Hz. That i don't know if worth.
The woofer is ment to go up to 300-350 Hz, being a part of 3-way midtop system.
I'm trying to model the horn that is more towars horn and less resonating, so i get a tighter sound, less springness & good eff. Getting a look to common BPH like ES18 and HD15 i noticed the very non linar response, that highlines the gap between the horn radiating and the resonating band. Otherwise l this non-linearity shown by HR response i never ever experienced in BPH like ES18 and USB, which i measured several time and i listen more than often. So What to do? Is it still good? Is the HR power response reliable? Should i lower tuning? Is NDL more suitable than ND730 in this case? Hother ways to design & model BPH if not HR?



Replies:
Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 06 March 2018 at 10:12pm
I hope you realize that 12ND730 is discontinued.

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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 06 March 2018 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

I hope you realize that 12ND730 is discontinued.
No i didn't relized yet. I stopped buying from 18Sound last years cuz prices just have skyrocketed in 2017. ND730 doesn't appear in my 2017 pricelist, and i'm still waiting for the 2018 one, but i don't se any label saying its discontinued, pretty sad as was the one performed better.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 06 March 2018 at 10:59pm
Prices have not changed much in the last 5-6 years. Must be your dealer doing that.
Try 12ND930

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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 06 March 2018 at 11:37pm
I'll try, any other advice or helpfull opinions?
About 18Sound, in my experience all prices have rised up a lot. There were more than one reseller here in Italy.. I had chance to get one 9601 for less than 400 €, get a look now.. Could be i am all wrong but i've been buying from different sources, and all are now more expensive. On the other hand B&C just keeps staying with same prices to me, lower than 18Sound.
EDIT:
ND930 pretty much the same as NDL76 as i expected. The point of my questions is about BPHs, and how far is the simulation from reality, if anyone of you have any guidline in designing that, according to the consideration i wrote and the already modeled one i posted.


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 06 March 2018 at 11:47pm
We use the 9601 since it was introduced. Actually we used 9600 and asked for some customization that later actually became 9601.
So since 2010 the price have been increased exactly 5 euros.


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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 06 March 2018 at 11:51pm
Nice for you man! Ill get a look around. No have direct contacts with 18Sound, so fi sure there some shit happening in between. Now i would really appreciate if we can skip this and focus on the topic subject Smile


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 06 March 2018 at 11:53pm
If you manage to precisely convert the HR data in to a cabinet, it is pretty much spot on.

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Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 06 March 2018 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

If you manage to precisely convert the HR data in to a cabinet, it is pretty much spot on.

Yep, i already designed the box, and liters in hornresp have already been adjusted to what i've been able to build on 3d model.
Just the mismatches i had measuring vs simulating (other BPHs) are stopping me from set design and start the building.
Even i dont get the point to choose one NDL76 rather than MB650 if simulation is not close to reality due to BPH hybrids behaviors.


Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 07 March 2018 at 12:24am
One thing HR cannot tell you is when the response of a BPH goes from useable to honky-mess, largely since that is due to the layout of the cabinet whilst HR only simulates things as a straight, cylindrical design

From my experiences of dabbling with BPHs, you will struggle to get it non-honky above 200Hz

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www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk


Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 07 March 2018 at 12:25am
Yeah well, software predictions can only do so much. It is not called R&D for nothing.
You build a box, measure, tweak/build another one, or seven, until you do it right.
If it was that easy everyone would be building boxes. 


-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: RoadRunnersDust
Date Posted: 07 March 2018 at 12:27am
Originally posted by MarjanM MarjanM wrote:

If it was that easy everyone would be building boxes. 


and how! If it was easy then nobody would be paying £££££ for Fk1 BPHs LOL

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www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk" rel="nofollow - www.guildfordcablecompany.co.uk


Posted By: mobiele eenheid
Date Posted: 07 March 2018 at 9:55am
From: https://forum.speakerplans.com/guide-to-winisd-pro-and-hornresp_topic1314_page2.html" rel="nofollow - https://forum.speakerplans.com/guide-to-winisd-pro-and-hornresp_topic1314_page2.html

Quote Hornresp models the power response of the horn. This is different than the on-axis response which you might measure with a microphone. The power response is what you would measure at a point if sound radiated evenly in all directions away from the horn, within the solid angle specified in the ANG input
In your case you're unlikely measuring truly in 4,0 pi, rather somewhere between 2,0 and 4,0 pi, so expect some difference based on that.

Quote So the modelled results should be fairly accurate up to the frequency where the horn starts to have directivity - where the polar pattern starts to narrow. This is typically at the frequency where the wavelength falls below the diameter of the horn mouth. Above this frequency, Hornresp will predict lower SPL levels than what you would measure on-axis
In other words you can expect the actual on-axis response to have a more rising response, than your sims now show.

Quote Hornresp now includes tools to investigate this effect. Once you calculate the model, go to the SPL Response chart. Under Tools, select Directivity. If you enter a blank input, you will see the power response. If you enter 0, you will see a prediction of the on-axis response. You can also enter other angles. Also under tools, you can look at the Pattern tool. This will predict the polar pattern at the frequency you input and show you the directivity index (DI) at that frequency. The DI is a number in dB giving the gain over what the level of the power response is
For this you need to approximate your horn as a single segment.

If you look at other designs going up till 300 - 350 Hz, you'll see that they are either straight horns or have extra ordinary effort (like phase bungs/ plugs) to keep the Vtc small.

Johan


Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 07 March 2018 at 12:36pm
So I will probably convert it to a 15" as i found 15NDL76 as better performance speaker. But this will for sure enlarge my chamber and my throat.. this is not helping much the high freq reproduction.. but I'm still faithful. It's gonna be reverse firing in common symmetrical front chamber, and this should help. I'll try to play on it. Thank you very much Mr Johan!


Posted By: levyte357-
Date Posted: 07 March 2018 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by LeruSound LeruSound wrote:

So I will probably convert it to a 15" as i found 15NDL76 as better performance speaker. But this will for sure enlarge my chamber and my throat.. this is not helping much the high freq reproduction.. but I'm still faithful. It's gonna be reverse firing in common symmetrical front chamber, and this should help. I'll try to play on it. Thank you very much Mr Johan!


I have a pair of authentic Turbosound THL-818, that with right driver and outboard tuning, will make very decent job of 75hz-300hz.

PM for more details.




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Global Depopulation - Alive and Killing.


Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 23 April 2018 at 2:27pm
So, in the end i went for 15" + 8" + 1". I post here some pics of prototyping and building.













Posted By: mini-mad
Date Posted: 24 April 2018 at 4:12pm
Very unique looking!! A bright green would REALLY make them stand out!




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If it sounds like a gorilla is trying to escape, turn it down.


Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 24 April 2018 at 5:22pm
Thank you guys, what i aim is it sound as i wanted.. We see in the end how it performs.. I already had some preview but waiting for those inductors and capacitors, than i realign everything and eq and serius setting.. Already got some confirmations that something has gone out of my plans such as some box rifractions/reflections giving me one unexpected dip in the most precious&delicate band range...

Finitures and paint such as building has nott been directed by me.. I helped but it's still in DIY policy so the guy wanted to use his own skills, and result is nice!! (we really no needed to fix every detail!)


Posted By: Hemisphere
Date Posted: 25 April 2018 at 7:21am
I wonder how it would look if you added a trim to the edge of the HF horn, a border edge/baffle piece so that it feels more incorporated and less tacked on.


Ideally it would fit flush with the brace and the MF horn panels, so the HF horn wouldn't move at all from it's current position but the gap behind it would be filled in.

Probably too involved a process to retrofit, but if this is a prototype it might be something to think about. No acoustic benefit (well, maybe a very marginal benefit to the HF horn stability that would probably outweigh any negative impact to the BPH), but it could help the cab look more fleshed out/coherent.

If you could manage to get the HF horn sitting flush in this baffle that would be neater still.


-------------
Phase 1: Post on Speakerplans
Phase 2: ?????
Phase 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o" rel="nofollow - Profit!


Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 25 April 2018 at 8:04am
I did that. If you get a look to the XT1086 from 18Sound you see cutout of that horn is almost all the horn large. I did it and it came out very weak due to tiny woods, and also i I didn't wanted to make horn+support structure bigger & bigger.
I.e. the woods & braces behing top and bottom of HF horn are cutted out so the horn is fitting those 2 3 cm inside.


Posted By: cravings
Date Posted: 25 April 2018 at 10:04am
tell us a little more about the 8". cool project.


Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 26 April 2018 at 8:53am
8 inches horn has been a pain in the ass. The whole system was supposed to be:
15" BPH from ~100 Hz - ~300 Hz
8" SH from ~ 300 Hz to ~2 kHz
1" CD Horn ~2kHz 

The aim of this system is to get a wide and best possible V dispersion, with a controlled and linear H dispersion, that is still narrower than V (enough to array 2 or more pieces without heavy combs).
Why wider V dispersion? It's for reagge/dub soundsystem, pointsourced at a fixed height, so not an ambient where versatility/sound reinforcement experiments are requied, and i wanted to design a speaker able to deliver a good and coherent translation of sound even 1/2 meters far from the stack, place where usually ppl dance as they get dat fatty bass, the juice of a dub/reggae party. One way is to easily angle a little FWD the tops cab, but it depends, not always is easy and pleasant to do.
So my researches went in asymetrical horns, and i learned is not a common topic, neither a proper way to do, as it ended up that is easyer to angle a symetrical horn rather than find complex geometries to bend the wavefront down.

Btw, i wanted to try, so reading a lot and modifying my initial idea, i finished to get that design + 8" cutted/molded phase plug (5 to 8 mm far from cone), that fills Vd of speaker and splits in two the paths vertically. That helped a lot in HF, cause horn has kind of large mouth, so off axis freq above 1 kHz were killed, on axis were killed around 1,5 kHz; more than 2 kHz after the phase plug. Directivity has gone as i expected, i got a something more or less good till 1.6 kHz in lower V axis, while it is killed above 1 kHz above V axis. I did these tests with that horrible prototype u see in first pic, but with the entire cab i got some refraction/reflection with BPH and i destroyed something in 1 kHz band, very sad as it was crucial point between what was good and what i achieved with ph.plug and horn modelling...

For may reasons (weak directivity results at HF in 8 inches horn mianly) i decided to move the cuts as this with these drivers:

15" BPH 15NDL76 - 280 Hz
8" SH 8PE21 - 280 Hz to 1.4 kHz (still to decide if to move up or stay like this)
1" CD horn DE550 mylar + XT1086 18Sound, same cut as above.

I now need to test the whole system with passive xvoer (from 15" to 8", very difficult decision that had to be taken) and i can spend some more words on final results.





Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 06 August 2018 at 2:57pm
This is some result i obtained from last measurement. Quite a bit of processing has been needed, but nothig CRUCIAL :D (Global polarity should have been reversed, but this is just a screenshot i got by the hurry)




Posted By: MarjanM
Date Posted: 06 August 2018 at 4:39pm
That is quite a complex built for a box that dies at 150hz.

-------------
Marjan Milosevic
MM-Acoustics
www.mm-acoustics.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MM-Acoustics/608901282527713


Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 06 August 2018 at 10:36pm
Indeed, that graph has a filter at 140 Hz, but the cab is supposedly to go down to 100Hz.. by the way, I had another measurement today and I have to admit it's not a total winning idea. I would expect it better.. I will try to switch on a bigger compression driver, 1,4 or more probabily 2", cuz it's the sufferinf band when you push it. But 15 + 8 is not bad at all, just I found difficulties in matching the 8 and the 1". Even if i get the cut lower, the 1" doesn't have enough.. will see..


Posted By: mobiele eenheid
Date Posted: 07 August 2018 at 9:12am
Because it peaks at 150 Hz quit strongly, you should be able to make it go down to at least 125 Hz in an enclosure of similar size. Also, up to what frequency does it sound good?


Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 07 August 2018 at 1:26pm
I measured, it does go down around 100 /120 Hz. Would say the 1" driver is the source of harshness. Everything up to 1 kHz comes out strong and spread well.  I don't know. Everytime i'm on a hurry doing measurements, cans stay listening for long.. But i would say the tweeter have something strange when plays loud. It is DE550 filtered at 1,5kHz with 24db/oct filter.


Posted By: FrederikMA
Date Posted: 08 August 2018 at 10:08am
DE550 is a very high quality driver with large voice coil. So with such a high crossover even on a small horn it shouldn't be the cause of distortion.
From the looks of that 8-horn, the rough throat and mouth will cause som very objectionable diffraction/reflections/HOMs.
These kinds of linear distortion are perceptively non-linear and happen in the CD's lower passband, so its quite in line with your subjective observation.

Deffinately loosen up that 8-horn to let it breath a bit. The problems is not really within the effective range of the phaseplug. An 8" driving a straight horn without any compression chamber will go higher than 1,5Khz and also have improved LF response. Once you have the lower mid in order, you can play around with a phaseplug to extend the upper mid response.

I don't mean to talk ill of your attempts, just dont spend money and time fixing the CD-horn non-issue.

Best regards Fred



Posted By: LeruSound
Date Posted: 09 August 2018 at 2:02pm
Thanks Fred. I always appreciate your precious advices. I had played around with phase plug for a while. I would love to try fill the front chamber even more or try a different phase plug design at least.
You've seen what i've done in previous pictures. I would avoid to model the plug inside the horn, as still throat is very tight (around 40sqcm), i would so try to model something that fills up the front chamber (very small, just the volume of the paper cone) while it splits the phaths and keeps some kind of horn expansion. Any suggestion on that? 



This is how it looks now. The plug stays 0,5 to 1 cm from the cone.




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